The smell test...
Dear Gilberto, You wrote: But at the same time, among the many different religious discussions one can have, some smell different. Below is a excerpt from a brief compilation I did in 2003 which I think of as Baha'u'llah's smell test... References below. Lovingly, Sandra Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! Rain down, I beseech Thee, from the clouds of Thine overflowing grace, that which shall cleanse the hearts of Thy servants from whatever may prevent their beholding Thy face, or may prevent them from turning unto Thee, that they may all recognize Him Who is their Fashioner and Creator. Help them, then, O God, to reach forth, through the power of Thy sovereign might, towards such a station that they can readily distinguish every foul smell from the fragrance of the raiment of Him Who is the Bearer of Thy most lofty and exalted name, that they may turn with all their affections toward Thee, and may enjoy such intimate communion with Thee that if all that is in heaven and on earth were given them they would regard it as unworthy of their notice, and would refuse to cease from remembering Thee and from extolling Thy virtues. (Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 159) We verily behold your actions. If We perceive from them the sweet smelling savor of purity and holiness, We will most certainly bless you. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 307) We intend only to impart unto you the truth, that ye might be informed thereof and be of them that lead a godly life. Beware lest ye give ear to the words of those from whom the foul smell of malice and envy can be discerned; pay no heed to them, and stand ye for righteousness. (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 200) How vast the number of the loved and chosen ones of God who have lamented and moaned by day and by night that haply a sweet and fragrant breeze might blow from the court of His good-pleasure and dispel altogether the loathsome and foul-smelling odours from the world. However, this ultimate goal could not be attained, and men were deprived thereof by virtue of their evil deeds, which brought upon them the retribution of God, in accordance with the basic principles of His divine rule. Ours is the duty to remain patient in these circumstances until relief be forthcoming from God, the Forgiving, the Bountiful. (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 177) If Thou smellest from any one the smell of the love of Thy Lord, offer up Thyself for him, for We have created Thee to this end, and have covenanted with Thee, from time immemorial, and in the presence of the congregation of Our well-favored ones, for this very purpose. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 283) Say: From My laws the sweet smelling savor of My garment can be smelled, and by their aid the standards of victory will be planted upon the highest peaks. The Tongue of My power hath, from the heaven of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My creation these words: Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty. Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the divine fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words, laden with the perfume of a grace which no tongue can describe. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 332) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:12:17 -0800, J. Vahid Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, You asked: Do you know where those other numbers come from? I think the only number I've heard of was 10 because in Genesis when Abraham was haggling with God to spare Sodom, God said that if there were 10 righteous men in Sodom he wouldn't have destroyed it. Babylonian Talmud, tractate Hullin, 92a: R. Yohanan said, 'There exist forty-five saints who sustain the world... Thirty-six became the standard enumeration of the tzaddikim from early medieval Kabbalistic sources on into modern Hasidic texts. On the thirty-six saints traditions, see Scholem's The Tradition of the Thirty-six Hidden Just Men, in his _Messianic Idea in Judaism_, pp. 251-6. Paul Fenton has a paper exploring these traditions and comparing them with analogs in medieval Islamic texts: The Hierarchy of Saints in Jewish and Islamic Mysticism, Journal of the Muhyiddin Ibn 'Arabi Society 10 (1991): 12-34. Thanks. I'll try to follow up on that. I think I have a book or two with stuff on kabbalah floating around in my room somewhere too. Maybe they might have something too. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 18:59:57 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J: But you do not accept the appearance of anyone on par with Prophet Muhammad, i.e. Baha'u'llah, who revealed a brand new Qur'an equal to the Qur'an you currently use, do you. In that respect, I believe that you are tying up the hands of God. I disagree with how you are characterizing this but have discussed it to death and am not sure how else to explain it. Do I have a general feel for what you are saying? ' We don't need Baha'u'llah (as He presents himself) because Islam is in a state of changing already. Islam does allow God to be present today and in the future, so the statement that God's hands are tied is not accurate.' I think I understand this perspective. It's funny. I actually would agree with the statement you wrote but I don't think that's what I was trying to get across with the above point. The point I was trying to make is just really simple and pedantic. It really is just about the difference between saying something can or can't happen on the one hand, and saying that something will or won't happen on the other. Saying God CAN'T do something is tying up his hands Saying God CAN do something but in his sovereign authority and omnipotence chose to do something different is not typing up his hands Why would the Quran need to be re-revealed if it is still here in its original form? No, on one level I do not see that there is a need for a re-revelation of the Qur'an if it already exists in original form. I would look at it more like this: If Muhammad revealed chapter 1 of the Qur'an, why would he reveal chapter 2? I don't know the Qur'an, but lets assume for argument's sake that in chapter 1 it is revealed do drink unless praying and in chapter 2 it is revealed do not drink at all. Isn't there a contradiction between these hypothetical Qur'anic chapters? The whole abrogation theory makes me uncomfortable and I'm glad that there are scholars who minimize its use or find other ways of reading the Quran. So this is less abstract, let me see if I can actually look up the specific example in terms of the drinking issue. This is chronologically first: 2:219: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit. They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: What is beyond your needs. Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider- then second comes: 4:43 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. [...] So this is saying don't pray when you are drunk. But notice that the first passage is still totally valid. There is still some harm and benefit in drinking, but the harm still outweighs the benefit. And finally: 5:93 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, - of Satan's handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. So this is the clearest prohibition of drinking, but the previous passages didn't positively permit drinking so there is no actual contradiction. And those previous passages are still true. If you look at what each is saying, all three are valid and don't contradict one another. I would consider the writing of Baha'u'llah as another chapter of the Qur'an. Where this analogy falls apart is that the statements in chapter 1 and 2 should be considered together to determine the real meaning (i.e. since man is always in a state of prayer/submission to God, it is never okay to drink). It is kind of funny you should mention that. Actually there are some Sufis who (I wouldn't endorse but) take the passage in a different direction. Some sufis are called sober Sufis who are more emotionally moderate, while others are more given to ecstatic and poetic statements and they are called drunken Sufis or God-intoxicated. So in the second group some make the argument that since they are drunk on God they are exempt from the prayer (and the other commandments of the shariah). Actually, given the wine-imagery in some of the Bahai writings and given that Bahais are also exempt from Muslim prayers, I would be slightly surprised if Bahais didn't make a similar argument. And thirdly, while I think that as individuals and as movements Christians can certainly be good spiritual people who make positive contributions to the world, I think that true Christianity (in the sense of a living tradition which authentically preserves the original teachings of Jesus as opposed to the theological baggage that the Church put in his mouth) actually is dead and was broken along time ago. How are the actual teachings of Jesus dead? In the sense that the overwhelming majority of
Re: The Perfect Man
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:50:23 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saying God CAN'T do something is tying up his hands Saying God CAN do something but in his sovereign authority and omnipotence chose to do something different is not typing up his hands Dear Gilberto, And do you really know of any instances where the Jews literally said this, or was it not their actions which essentially amounted to saying the same thing? I don't know about Jews, but I think in various communities there are some theologians who literally do put certain limitations on God and in effect say that God has to be thus and so. What is the original context of this anyway? [5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases [...] Actually, I found a better version of this passage translated by Muhammad Asad (a famous convert who comes from a Jewish background) (64) And the Jews say, God's hand is shackled! It is their own hands that are shackled; and rejected [by God] are they because of this their assertion. Nay, but wide are His hands stretched out: He dispenses [bounty] as He wills. But all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee [O Prophet] by thy Sustainer is bound to make many of them yet more stubborn in their overweening arrogance and in their denial of the truth. And then the following note: 81 The phrase one's hand is shackled is a metaphorical expression denoting niggardliness, just as its opposite-his hand is stretched out wide -signifies generosity (Zamakhshary). However, these two phrases have a wider meaning as well, namely, lack of power and unlimited power, respectively (Razi). It would appear that the Jews of Medina, seeing the poverty of the Muslims, derided the latters' conviction that they were struggling in God's cause and that the Qur'an was divinely revealed. Thus, the saying of the Jews mentioned in this verse, God's hand is shackled, as well as the parallel one in 3 : 181, God is poor while we are rich, is an elliptical description of their attitude towards Islam and the Muslims - an attitude of disbelief and sarcasm which could be thus paraphrased: If it were true that you Muslims are doing God's will, He would have bestowed upon you power and riches; but your poverty and your weakness contradict your claim - or else this claim of yours amounts, in effect, to saying that God cannot help you. This outstanding example of the elliptic mode of expression (Tjaz) so often employed in the Qur'an has, however, a meaning that goes far beyond the historical circumstances to which it refers: it illustrates an attitude of mind which mistakenly identifies Pworldly riches or power with one's being, spiritually, on the right way. In the next sentence the Qur'an takes issue with this attitude and declares, in an equally elliptical manner, that all who see in material success an alleged evidence of God's approval are blind to spiritual truths and, therefore, morally powerless and utterly self-condemned in the sight of God. [end quote] So I would say the Bahai use of the term is certainly different from the original. And I'm not convinced it is even applicable. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: The Perfect Man
It would appear that the Jews of Medina, seeing the poverty of the Muslims, derided the latters' conviction that they were struggling in God's cause and that the Qur'an was divinely revealed. Thus, the saying of the Jews mentioned in this verse, God's hand is shackled, as well as the parallel one in 3 : 181, God is poor while we are rich, is an elliptical description of their attitude towards Islam and the Muslims - an attitude of disbelief and sarcasm which could be thus paraphrased: If it were true that you Muslims are doing God's will, He would have bestowed upon you power and riches; but your poverty and your weakness contradict your claim - In other words triumphalism. That is rather the lines along which Yassir has argued against the Faith, isn't it? That if we were a true religion we would be running Iran or maybe the rest of the world by now. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Past Revelations
Gilberto: I see your point and would tend to agree with you in mundane examples but when you are talking about divine revelation I think you start to run into problems. Rich: How so? Gilberto: In the mundane case it is easier to deal with the idea that nothing is perfect so its not a big deal for it to be improved upon later. Like a sports record... there is always going to be someone else later who will run faster, be stronger, jump higher, farther, etc. But thinking of God in that way comes out very much like faint praise. It tends to accuse God of limitation and imperfection. Gilberto, Sorry for taking so long to respond, it has been a very busy week. I see your point, however, it is not God's perfection that is in question nor His limitations; He has none. It is humanity's that are the issue in Baha'i theology. The need for continuous revelation is due to the human race's imperfection and limitations. As we continue to grow and are able to accept more, revelation continues. The Muslim concept that revelation ended with Muhammad (PBUH) and that now God has to find other ways to communicate with us ties the hand of God. God created us logical and inteligent, I cannot see the logic in ending revelation in 10 AH anymore than I can see the logic of ending it in 33 AD Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Rich: I think you're skirting the issue here. Sunni's do not believe that the 12 Imams were infallible in there interpretation of the Qur'an or that their rulings are infallible. Sunnis do not believe that the 12 Imams were the temporal AND spriritual head of the Ummah. I know you don't cheer the Ummayad, but the majority of Muslims did not follow Hussayn to Karbilah, they recognized the leadership of Mu'awiyyah. Gilberto: I think there are a couple of levels of this which were starting to get blurred. You said that if Ali had been accepted, Islam might have continued as a valid religion. Right? And I would say that if you start with the Bahai perspective, that Shia Islam strongly preserves the teachings of the religion of Islam. I see your point, but I'm not saying that another revelation would not have come. I'm saying if ALL of Islam had accepted Ali, as the infallable Imam, and accepted the other 11 Imams after him, then the change of revelations would have been seemless. I am also saying that had this occurred the spread of Islam would have been even greater than it was. The fact is that the Shi'a have always been a minority, and often a despised minority, as a perusal of Ibn Taymiyyah will illustrate. And then on top of that, Sunnis (especially Sufis) still see Ali as a spiritual successor to the prophet. No you don't. The Sunni see Ali as a temporal successor, one of the four rightly guided Khalifs, even the Sufis don't see him as infallable. By the way, there seems to be a decidely anti-Sufi feeling in many Sunni circles these days. I refer to the Deobandi and Wahabi outlooks. But the sunni and shiite theology is there. I disagree that the theology is still there. Rich: So what, so is the Nicean creed, does it negate Islam? Gilberto: I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim perspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the true followers of Jesus. Interesting thought, so there were few Christians left at the advent of Muhammad (PBUH)? As to the Nicean creed there is as much argument for it being Divinely inspired as there is for current fiqh and sharia. Remember the original question was your claim that if the majority had accepted Ali that Islam might have become universal. EVen from the Bahai perspective where Shiism was the correct view, then shiism still exists and the writings and teachings are still there and in place. Rich: Once again, skirting the issue. The shi'a believe that the 12th Imam went into occulatation, we believe he came out of occultation, ie the Bab and Heralded the Return of Christ ie Baha'u'llah. That is Shi'a theology fulfilled to us. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean by skirting the issue. So what would have been different if the majority had accepted Ali? What I mean by skirting the issue is that the majority of Muslims do not accept the Shi'a stance, even if it is still there. That was my point. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
In a message dated 1/4/2005 3:17:31 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, given the wine-imagery in some of the Bahai writings andgiven that Bahais are also "exempt" from Muslim prayers, I would beslightly surprisedif Bahais didn't make a similar argument. We are also exempt from Christian and Judaic prayers. We are, however, given our prayer requirements. Drugs and alcohol to 'alter" the consciousness are also prohibited by Baha`u'llah. It is the position of the Central Figures of our faith that the human mind is perfe t for communion with God and tampering with that perfection is a basically flawed outlook. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Past Revelations
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:40:39 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I see your point and would tend to agree with you in mundane examples but when you are talking about divine revelation I think you start to run into problems. Rich: How so? Gilberto: In the mundane case it is easier to deal with the idea that nothing is perfect so its not a big deal for it to be improved upon later. Like a sports record... there is always going to be someone else later who will run faster, be stronger, jump higher, farther, etc. But thinking of God in that way comes out very much like faint praise. It tends to accuse God of limitation and imperfection. Rich: Gilberto,Sorry for taking so long to respond, it has been a very busy week. Gilberto: It's Ok. Rich: I see your point, however, it is not God's perfection that is in question nor His limitations; He has none. It is humanity's that are the issue in Baha'i theology. The need for continuous revelation is due to the human race's imperfection and limitations. Ok, other than gender (which I would momentarily exclude only because I've had that argument several times before and I just want to think about something else) what would be a concrete example of how we need more revelation due to human imperfection? I guess what would be an ideal or principle which is missing from one religion, but present in a later one. Or some other kind of example which would show the need for *progressive* revelation. As we continue to grow and are able to accept more, revelation continues. The Muslim concept that revelation ended with Muhammad (PBUH) and that now God has to find other ways to communicate with us ties the hand of God. Firstly, the idea that God *has* to do anything ties to the hand Secondly, the more precise claim is that prophethood has ceased. But, in Islam, there are still many and diverse ways for God to communicate with and guide humanity through all sorts of non-prophets. God created us logical and inteligent, I cannot see the logic in ending revelation in 10 AH anymore than I can see the logic of ending it in 33 AD I don't think anyone is saying that the end of prophethood is logically necessary. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:35:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But in general, that books which I've read which come out of the"Deobandi" circles are actually pretty explicitly and uniformlysupportive of Sufism. Tablighi Jamaat which is probably the Muslimworld's largest mass movement (their annual convention gets a higherattendance of Muslims than the hajj) comes out of the Deobandiperspective and they are certainly infavor of Sufism. Dear Rich and Gilberto, I think it depends on what kind of Sufism you are talking about. The Deobandi school opposed the kinds Sufism which had built bridges with Hinduism and created the kind of universalism that typified Mughal India. But orders like Naqshabandi they had no problem with. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:50:35 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would appear that the Jews of Medina, seeing the poverty of the Muslims, derided the latters' conviction that they were struggling in God's cause and that the Qur'an was divinely revealed. Thus, the saying of the Jews mentioned in this verse, God's hand is shackled, as well as the parallel one in 3 : 181, God is poor while we are rich, is an elliptical description of their attitude towards Islam and the Muslims - an attitude of disbelief and sarcasm which could be thus paraphrased: If it were true that you Muslims are doing God's will, He would have bestowed upon you power and riches; but your poverty and your weakness contradict your claim - In other words triumphalism. That is rather the lines along which Yassir has argued against the Faith, isn't it? That if we were a true religion we would be running Iran or maybe the rest of the world by now. Is Yassir on the Bahai Studies list? I wouldn't want to speak for him. But personally I wouldn't want to make that sort of argument. I don't think that that kind of success is much of an indication of truth. In fact, I think in general the liberation theology perspective (where God is on the side of the poor and the oppressed) is much more compelling. Unfortunately I think they are popular in many different circles. On more than one occasion, I've seen Bahais make similar arguments by looking at Western economic power or technological success compared to the Muslim world and try to make some kind of implication about Islam. So all sorts of people in all sorts of religious communities make all sorts of arguments. Both good and bad. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 18:44:14 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2005 3:17:31 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, given the wine-imagery in some of the Bahai writings and given that Bahais are also exempt from Muslim prayers, I would be slightly surprised if Bahais didn't make a similar argument. We are also exempt from Christian and Judaic prayers. We are, however, given our prayer requirements. Drugs and alcohol to 'alter the consciousness are also prohibited by Baha`u'llah. It is the position of the Central Figures of our faith that the human mind is perfe t for communion with God and tampering with that perfection is a basically flawed outlook. Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Bahais allow themselves to use chemical intoxicants. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:57:59 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don'tthink that that kind of success is much of an indication of truth. Infact, I think in general the liberation theology perspective (whereGod is on the side of the poor and the oppressed) is much morecompelling. Dear Gilberto, Better be careful, we are agreeing again. ;-} "Onmore than one occasion, I've seen Bahais make similar arguments bylooking at Western economic power or technological success compared tothe Muslim world and try to make some kind of implication about Islam." That's rather funny, because the only time I've seen the Writings argue anything at all along those lines it had to do with how much Western progress was due to the influence of the Islamic world! But I myself have one word which explainsWestern hegemony, namelyexploitation. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Perfect Man
Gilberto wrote: So I would say the Bahai use of the term is certainly different from the original. And I'm not convinced it is even applicable. Dear Gilberto: As one who has embraced the Baha'i Faith because of the Qur'an, I have read your posts, and the posts sent to you with some interest. There is one principle I had to learn even as a Christian; and before the Gospel led me to the Qur'an, which I embraced. The principle is best stated by Baha'u'llah. It is this: Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 128) The effort made by men to reconcile the Word of God with the views of their leades is a wasted effort. Rather man must cast all aside save the Word of God. One must make a choice. Should one reflect? God setteth forth these similitudes to men that haply they may reflect. (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 14 - Abraham, on Whom be Peace) Or should one listen to the learning of men regarding what is parabolical and the interpretation of which is known only to God? But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. (The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 3 - The Family Of Imran) As God's Hands cannot be literally chained-up or shackled, the verse which you discussed in your post is clearly parabolical, an allusion; and hence must be left to the interpretation of God. And may the peace of the Beloved enter into your heart Gilberto. Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
