Re: Quran reading questions
On 7/30/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My biggest problem with Rodwell is his unsympathetic footnotes. I'm afraid they would put more negative perconceptions in your head. Rodwell is a Chritian missionary, after all. Yusuf Ali with footnotes is pretty good. So is Muhammad Asad. Asad (with footnotes) is actually available online: http://www.geocities.com/masad02/ Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
...a humiliating torment
GS: I think I'd heard there was a geometrically increasing fine for adultery but I don't think I'd heard of the public humiliation of adulterers. SM: I'm not sure what Ron is referring to here either. SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice: nine mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat the offence. Such is the penalty which He Who is the Lord of Names hath assigned them in this world; *and in the world to come He hath ordained for them a humiliating torment.* Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised. 38 (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 37) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... Ah yes. Let's not forget that traditionally adultery has been punished by stoning. And no, Jesus never explicitly did away with that, He simply refused to uphold a double standard which punished women and let men off scot free. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... Ah yes. Let's not forget that traditionally adultery has been punished by stoning. And no, Jesus never explicitly did away with that, He simply refused to uphold a double standard which punished women and let men off scot free. I've heard similar things but I don't think I've ever heard/read a good explanation of exactly was the scope and intent of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Was he just saving this one woman? Was he abolishing the death penalty for adultery but not for other crimes? Was he abolishing the death penalty altogether? Was he saying that no one should be punished for anything. The original commandment in Leviticus 20 says: [10] If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death In the New Testament, there doesn't seem to much indication one way or another about what happened to the guy in the famous example. So I'm not sure about the gloss you are giving it above. But I guess it makes at least as much sense as any other. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
I've heard similar things but I don't think I've ever heard/read a good explanation of exactly was the scope and intent of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Dear Gilberto, Well one thing we do know is that it was a woman brought before Jesus (and not the man she presumably committed adultery with.) And that it was men who were about to do the stoning. But whatever Jesus' intention, no Christian has ever enforced the Old Testament law on this matter, whereas they have enforced such Old Testament edicts such as you shall not suffer a witch to live. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've heard similar things but I don't think I've ever heard/read a good explanation of exactly was the scope and intent of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Dear Gilberto, Well one thing we do know is that it was a woman brought before Jesus (and not the man she presumably committed adultery with.) And that it was men who were about to do the stoning. Sure, but you can't just ASSUME that he just got off scott-free. Maybe he confessed. Maybe they caught him later. Maybe the crowd had *already* caught him, killed him first, and then were going after the woman. You just don't know. But whatever Jesus' intention, no Christian has ever enforced the Old Testament law on this matter, whereas they have enforced such Old Testament edicts such as you shall not suffer a witch to live. I would be surprised. Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Quran reading questions
Hello Dr. Maneck, Previous dialogue snippets: Sandra Chamberlain: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... Dr. Susan Maneck: Ah yes. Let's not forget that traditionally adultery has been punished by stoning. And no, Jesus never explicitly did away with that, He simply refused to uphold a double standard which punished women and let men off scot free. In another place, Dr, Maneck wrote: Ron, Actually, there is not much evidence that Jesus changed that much of anything in the Old Testament. It is more Paul who did the abrogating. What he did (at least as Protestants would understand it) was chuch out the law period, and in so doing took away any say Christianity might have in terms of society. Virtually all of the things Christians adhere to in terms of social teachings are derived from the Old Testament and not the New. Ron replies: Dr. Maneck, I must with all due respect disagree with your point here, and the similar points you have made about Jesus, the Old Testament Laws, and the Apostle Paul. First, I am fully aware that is quite fashionable these days to denigrate the Apostle Paul, and to say that he led the early Christian Church astray, and away from the true teachings of Jesus. It is common these days for some Christian theologian revisionists to say that Paul created a new religion, barely related to the one Jesus intended. But I am very surprised to hear a Baha'i scholar talk like this. It is my understanding, from my readings of the Writings of the Baha'i Central Figures, particularly Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi, that we as Baha'is are diametrically opposed to such revisionists. That is, our Central Figures uphold the teachings of the New Testament as a whole, and regard it all as divine Scripture, not just the parts normally ascribed to Jesus Himself. These Baha'i Writings show the utmost respect for the early Christian Church, and all its teachings and authority, certainly including the authority of the Writings ascribed to Paul as well as the Gospels. Now before you even ask , I can not, off the top of my head, quote you chapter and verse of which books by the Master and the Guardian make these points, although I am certain I could find them if I took the time. Please do not require me to do so; I am sure that if you think about it, you will realize from your own memory that this is true. As for the Bible, as you know, I know it. The stoning incident is an important one. But I do not think your interpretation is viable. It is not consistent with the rest of the New Testament. Jesus said let he who is without sin amongst you cast the first stone. In saying this, He obviously banned stoning for all time and in all places for those who would follow Him. For who amongst us is without sin? Certainly not anybody, so no one can ever justifiably stone anyone ever again. In fact , the only One present that day who was without sin, and thus might have met Jesus' requirement to stone the adulteress, was Jesus Himself. That is why, after all the would-be stoners dropped their stones and slunk away, He next said Neither do I condemn thee, Go thy way and sin no more Thus Jesus Himself refused to follow the Old Testament law and stone the adulterer. Jesus repeatedly, all through the Gospels, refuses to obey the Old Testament Laws time and time again, and He does so publicly and makes doubly certain that people notice He does this. He violates the Sabbath; He eats the forbidden shew-corn.; etc. etc. And He even gives reasons why it is right to violate these laws. And, both from a conventional Christian point of view, as well as a Baha'i point of view (as expounded by our Central Figures), Paul's commentary on the Law is every bit as binding and authoritative as any other part of the New Testament. Now, Jesus personally violated many of he Laws, He did so publicly, He led and caused His disciples to do so also, and He even gave His reasoning why it was right to to do so. And yet Jesus also said Not one jot or tittle of the Law shall pass away. (John 5:17) How do we reconcile these things? Obviously, Jesus Spiritualized the Law. He most certainly did not do away with it; but He transcended it, commuted it to Spiritual principles, and thus fulfilled it and caused the Law to transcend itself and morph into a far greater form of Spiritual Law (which Jesus Himself describes elsewhere). I do not believe that these things are in dispute. Normative Christianity has always believed thus, the New Testament explains it clearly and indisputably, and our Baha'i Central Figures have upheld the New Testament. Ron The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the
Re: ...a humiliating torment
Hello Sandra and Dr. Maneck, Concerning Public Humiliation for Adulterers, as prescribed by the Aqdas: from a previous dialogue: GS: I think I'd heard there was a geometrically increasing fine for adultery but I don't think I'd heard of the public humiliation of adulterers. SM: I'm not sure what Ron is referring to here either. SC: Not *public* but, ...in the world to come... God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice: nine mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat the offence. Such is the penalty which He Who is the Lord of Names hath assigned them in this world; *and in the world to come He hath ordained for them a humiliating torment.* Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised. 38 (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 37) Ron Replies: I did not just make this up, nor did I simply confuse humiliation in the next world with humiliation in this world. I have read the Aqdas. It is our Most Holy Book and contains our Laws, so I am not willing to let someone else tell me what is in it. It is very short book and I must know for myslef its contents. I quote here from page 200, Note 77: In one of His tablets, Abdul Baha refers to some of the spiritual and social implications of the violation of the laws of morality and, concerning the penalty here described, He indicates that the aim here is to make clear to all that such an action is shameful in the eyes of God and that, in the event that the offence can be established and the fine imposed, the principle purpose is the exposure of the offenders--that they are shamed and disgraced in the eyes of society. He affirms that such an exposure in itself is the greatest punishment. Ron The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
I would be surprised. Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Dear Gilberto, I might add something about Christian Reconstructionalism, at the risk of offending your sensibilities. I think Christian Reconstructionalism is heavily influenced by Islam, though unbeknowngst to its followers. The founder of the Reconstructionalists movement was Rushdoony, an Armenian from the Middle East. Much of what he envisioned for his Christian theocracy, particularly the position of non-Christian minorities, was pretty much modeled on the Ottoman millet system. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Quran reading questions
But I am very surprised to hear a Baha'i scholar talk like this. It is my understanding, from my readings of the Writings of the Baha'i Central Figures, particularly Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi, that we as Baha'is are diametrically opposed to such revisionists. That is, our Central Figures uphold the teachings of the New Testament as a whole, and regard it all as divine Scripture, not just the parts normally ascribed to Jesus Himself. Dear Ron, I don't know of any place in the Writings that directly speaks to this question and the truth is that Baha'is have different understandings on this issue. Some Baha'is even imagine that Paul was some kind of Covenant breaker. I don't happen to agree with them, but neither do I feel constrained to necessarily agree with all aspects of Paul's writings. Actually, I think a lot of Protestants have simply take Paul much further than he really ever intended to go. As for the Bible, as you know, I know it. The stoning incident is an important one. But I do not think your interpretation is viable. It is not consistent with the rest of the New Testament. It is consistent with Jesus' treatment of women as found in the Gospel of Luke. But of course the stoning incident is found in John's Gospel. Jesus said let he who is without sin amongst you cast the first stone. In saying this, He obviously banned stoning for all time and in all places for those who would follow Him. That's not obvious to me at all. Jesus repeatedly, all through the Gospels, refuses to obey the Old Testament Laws time and time again, and He does so publicly and makes doubly certain that people notice He does this. And at other times He tells His disciples that they must do better than the Pharisees in upholding the law; that they should do as they say but not as they do. And, both from a conventional Christian point of view, as well as a Baha'i point of view (as expounded by our Central Figures), Paul's commentary on the Law is every bit as binding and authoritative as any other part of the New Testament. You'll have to give me some support from the Writings for that latter statement. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Susan, At 04:44 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity. Christian reconstructionists, or theonomists, are post-millennialists who want to institute Old Testament law, not the principles of the New Testament. They believe that, before Christ will return, the church, which they equate with the kingdom of God, needs to be established. Then, they believe, Christ will return to a victorious church (kingdom). Christian reconstructionism are probably the closest Christian movement to the Taliban. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Quran reading questions
In a message dated 7/31/2005 2:12:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for the Bible, as you know, I know it. The stoning incident is animportant one. But I do not think your interpretation is viable. It isnot consistent with the rest of the New Testament.Jesus said "" let he who is without sin amongst you cast the firststone". In saying this, He obviously banned stoning for all time andin all places for those who would follow Him. For who amongst us iswithout sin? Certainly not anybody, so no one can ever justifiablystone anyone ever again. In fact , the only One present that day whowas without sin, and thus might have met Jesus' requirement to stonethe adulteress, was Jesus Himself. That is why, after all the would-bestoners dropped their stones and slunk away, He next said "Neither doI condemn thee, Go thy way and sin no more"Thus Jesus Himself refused to follow the Old Testament law and stonethe adulterer.Jesus repeatedly, all through the Gospels, refuses to obey the OldTestament Laws time and time again, and He does so publicly and makesdoubly certain that people notice He does this. He violates theSabbath; He eats the forbidden shew-corn.; etc. etc. And He even givesreasons why it is right to violate these laws.And, both from a conventional Christian point of view, as well as aBaha'i point of view (as expounded by our Central Figures), Paul'scommentary on the Law is every bit as binding and authoritative as anyother part of the New Testament.Now, Jesus personally violated many of he Laws, He did so publicly, Heled and caused His disciples to do so also, and He even gave Hisreasoning why it was right to to do so. And yet Jesus also said "Notone jot or tittle of the Law shall pass away". (John 5:17) How do wereconcile these things?Obviously, Jesus Spiritualized the Law. He most certainly did not "doaway" with it; but He transcended it, commuted it to Spiritualprinciples, and thus fulfilled it and caused the Law to transcenditself and morph into a far greater form of Spiritual Law (which JesusHimself describes elsewhere).I do not believe that these things are in dispute. NormativeChristianity has always believed thus, the New Testament explains itclearly and indisputably, and our Baha'i Central Figures have upheldthe New Testament.Ron Question. -- Is the ablution of baptism useful and necessary, or is it useless and unnecessary? In the first case, if it is useful, why was it abrogated? And in the second case, if it is useless, why did John practice it? Answer. -- The change in conditions, alterations and transformations are necessities of the essence of beings, and essential necessities cannot be separated from the reality of things. So it is absolutely impossible to separate heat from fire, humidity from water, or light from the sun, for they are essential necessities. As the change and alteration of conditions are necessities for beings, so laws also are changed and altered in accordance with the changes and alterations of the times. For example, in the time of Moses, His Law was conformed and adapted to the conditions of the time; but in the days of Christ these conditions had changed and altered to such an extent that the Mosaic Law was no longer suited and adapted to the needs of mankind; and it was, therefore, abrogated. Thus it was that Christ broke the Sabbath and forbade divorce. After Christ four disciples, among whom were Peter and Paul, permitted the use of animal food forbidden by the Bible, except the eating of those animals which had been strangled, or which were sacrificed to idols, and of blood.[1] They also forbade fornication. They maintained these four commandments. Afterward, Paul permitted even the eating of strangled animals, those sacrificed to idols, and blood, and only maintained the prohibition of fornication. 94 So in chapter 14, verse 14 of his Epistle to the Romans, Paul writes: "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."[1 Acts 15:20.] Also in the Epistle of Paul to Titus, chapter 1, verse 15: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." Now this change, these alterations and this abrogation are due to the impossibility of comparing the time of Christ with that of Moses. The conditions and requirements in the later period were entirely changed and altered. The former laws were, therefore, abrogated. The existence of the world may be compared to that of a man, and the Prophets and Messengers of God to skillful doctors. The human being cannot remain in one condition: different maladies occur which have each a special remedy. The skillful physician does not give the same
Re: Quran reading questions
Thank you Popeye, Very much. Ron On 7/31/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/31/2005 2:12:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for the Bible, as you know, I know it. The stoning incident is an important one. But I do not think your interpretation is viable. It is not consistent with the rest of the New Testament. Jesus said let he who is without sin amongst you cast the first stone. In saying this, He obviously banned stoning for all time and in all places for those who would follow Him. For who amongst us is without sin? Certainly not anybody, so no one can ever justifiably stone anyone ever again. In fact , the only One present that day who was without sin, and thus might have met Jesus' requirement to stone the adulteress, was Jesus Himself. That is why, after all the would-be stoners dropped their stones and slunk away, He next said Neither do I condemn thee, Go thy way and sin no more Thus Jesus Himself refused to follow the Old Testament law and stone the adulterer. Jesus repeatedly, all through the Gospels, refuses to obey the Old Testament Laws time and time again, and He does so publicly and makes doubly certain that people notice He does this. He violates the Sabbath; He eats the forbidden shew-corn.; etc. etc. And He even gives reasons why it is right to violate these laws. And, both from a conventional Christian point of view, as well as a Baha'i point of view (as expounded by our Central Figures), Paul's commentary on the Law is every bit as binding and authoritative as any other part of the New Testament. Now, Jesus personally violated many of he Laws, He did so publicly, He led and caused His disciples to do so also, and He even gave His reasoning why it was right to to do so. And yet Jesus also said Not one jot or tittle of the Law shall pass away. (John 5:17) How do we reconcile these things? Obviously, Jesus Spiritualized the Law. He most certainly did not do away with it; but He transcended it, commuted it to Spiritual principles, and thus fulfilled it and caused the Law to transcend itself and morph into a far greater form of Spiritual Law (which Jesus Himself describes elsewhere). I do not believe that these things are in dispute. Normative Christianity has always believed thus, the New Testament explains it clearly and indisputably, and our Baha'i Central Figures have upheld the New Testament. Ron Question. -- Is the ablution of baptism useful and necessary, or is it useless and unnecessary? In the first case, if it is useful, why was it abrogated? And in the second case, if it is useless, why did John practice it? Answer. -- The change in conditions, alterations and transformations are necessities of the essence of beings, and essential necessities cannot be separated from the reality of things. So it is absolutely impossible to separate heat from fire, humidity from water, or light from the sun, for they are essential necessities. As the change and alteration of conditions are necessities for beings, so laws also are changed and altered in accordance with the changes and alterations of the times. For example, in the time of Moses, His Law was conformed and adapted to the conditions of the time; but in the days of Christ these conditions had changed and altered to such an extent that the Mosaic Law was no longer suited and adapted to the needs of mankind; and it was, therefore, abrogated. Thus it was that Christ broke the Sabbath and forbade divorce. After Christ four disciples, among whom were Peter and Paul, permitted the use of animal food forbidden by the Bible, except the eating of those animals which had been strangled, or which were sacrificed to idols, and of blood.[1] They also forbade fornication. They maintained these four commandments. Afterward, Paul permitted even the eating of strangled animals, those sacrificed to idols, and blood, and only maintained the prohibition of fornication. 94 So in chapter 14, verse 14 of his Epistle to the Romans, Paul writes: I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [1 Acts 15:20.] Also in the Epistle of Paul to Titus, chapter 1, verse 15: Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Now this change, these alterations and this abrogation are due to the impossibility of comparing the time of Christ with that of Moses. The conditions and requirements in the later period were entirely changed and altered. The former laws were, therefore, abrogated. The existence of the world may be compared to that of a man, and the Prophets and Messengers of God to skillful doctors. The human being cannot remain in one
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Christian reconstructionism are probably the closest Christian movement to the Taliban. And to the takfir wa hijr movements in general. In fact, I'm suggesting there may be a historical connection. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Paul (was: Quran reading questions)
Paul's commentary on the Law is every bit as binding and authoritative
as any other part of the New Testament."
Here is my understanding:
Although Paul was certainly a very important figure in the development
of the early Christian community, he was not a Manifestation
of God, he was not the equal of Jesus. Paul had no guarantee of being
divinely guided, he was not infallible. Therefore his comments are not
binding or authoritative at all.
Paul was not what we would call a Covenant breaker; that concept
isn't useful for Christianity because Jesus never gave His followers
an explicit, written Covenant.
Paul was a great teacher, but, in our own age, so were Martha Root,
Louis Gregory, and Enoch Olinga. Their opinions are worthy of
respect, in my view, but they are not binding or authoritative.
In short, we don't have to obey them, and Christians don't have
to obey Paul. That's how I see it.
Tim Nolan
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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RE: ...a humiliating torment
Susan, At 06:04 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: And to the takfir wa hijr movements in general. In fact, I'm suggesting there may be a historical connection. The connection you made is interesting. If there is a difference with Takfir wa Hijra, it is in the rejection of violence. Actually, I think that the Christian reconstructionists are a bit closer to the Deobandis (the parent of the Taliban and also Pres. Musharraf's sect). Members of both groups (the Taliban notwithstanding) generally advocate non-violence. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
The connection you made is interesting. If there is a difference with Takfir wa Hijra, it is in the rejection of violence. Dear Mark, I don't think all Reconstructionalists reject violence. In fact some of them support militias and quite a few believe believe in arming themselves to the teeth. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would be surprised. Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Dear Gilberto, I might add something about Christian Reconstructionalism, at the risk of offending your sensibilities. When has that stopped you before :) I think Christian Reconstructionalism is heavily influenced by Islam, though unbeknowngst to its followers. The founder of the Reconstructionalists movement was Rushdoony, an Armenian from the Middle East. I think the idea is bigger than any one person. There are a whole host of people who are important figures in the movement. Another name of someone who is also considered a founder is Cornelius Van Til but he is from the Netherlands. I think that given the fact that the Old Testament actually has a whole collection of laws (613 according to the Rabbis) and that one can make Biblical arguments for why one ought to continue to follow those laws, it doesn't seem necessary to blame Islam for Reconstructionism. There are certainly no shortage of fundamentalist Christians who hate Islam but think that the Old Testament is full of wisdom and guidance. I doesn't take alot of imagination to think that implementing the OT would be a good idea. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even today, there are some reconstructionist Christians who want to establish a theocracy and want stoning implemented as punishment. Perhaps, but it has never been done in historical Christianity. I'm going to be skeptical since I'm generally suspicious of categorical claims like that. I find it really hard to believe that Christians were fine with burning people at the stake but found it out of the question to stone people to such agree that it has NEVER been done. Especially since the punishment is found in the Bible. But if I look for awhile and don't find a counter-example, feel free to mention it to me and I'll be big enough to admit I'm wrong. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
There are certainly no shortage of fundamentalist Christians who hate Islam but think that the Old Testament is full of wisdom and guidance. I doesn't take alot of imagination to think that implementing the OT would be a good idea. Dear Gilberto, Strictly speaking the Reconstructionalists are not Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are typically Dispensationalists, a position quite the opposite of Reconstructionalism. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
I'm going to be skeptical since I'm generally suspicious of categorical claims like that. I find it really hard to believe that Christians were fine with burning people at the stake but found it out of the question to stone people to such agree that it has NEVER been done. Especially since the punishment is found in the Bible. Dear Gilberto, Well, let me put it this way, I've studied church history for three years mostly during the medieval and early modern period. I've never heard of a case. If I were to look for one though, I would probably look among the more militant anabaptists. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Hi, Susan, At 08:54 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: I don't think all Reconstructionalists reject violence. In fact some of them support militias and quite a few believe believe in arming themselves to the teeth. Some people associated with various factions of the Christian Identity movement advocate violence. However, they are not, strictly speaking, reconstructionists. Christian Identity is basically a combination of postmillennialism and some of the more racist versions of Yahwehism. What the Christian Identity movement and the Christian Reconstructionist movement have in common is their postmillennialism. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
Gilberto, At 09:10 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: Another name of someone who is also considered a founder is Cornelius Van Til but he is from the Netherlands. Van Til's Calvinist presuppositionalism may have influenced Rushdoony to a degree, but Van Til was not an advocate of any version of dominion theology. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Susan, At 09:35 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: Strictly speaking the Reconstructionalists are not Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are typically Dispensationalists, a position quite the opposite of Reconstructionalism. That was true until recently. However, increasing numbers of fundamentalists, including more fundamentalist pentecostals, are moving over to the reconstructionist side. Typically, they call their views dominionism or, sometimes, kingdom now theology. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Dear Mark, I'm not thinking of Christian Identity. I'm thinking of the some of the Reconstructionalists that were on the Bill Moyer documentary. One of them that was really into guns was Rushdoonie's son-in-law. warmest, Susan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark A. Foster Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 9:47 PM To: Baha'i Studies Subject: RE: ...a humiliating torment Hi, Susan, At 08:54 PM 7/31/2005, you wrote: I don't think all Reconstructionalists reject violence. In fact some of them support militias and quite a few believe believe in arming themselves to the teeth. Some people associated with various factions of the Christian Identity movement advocate violence. However, they are not, strictly speaking, reconstructionists. Christian Identity is basically a combination of postmillennialism and some of the more racist versions of Yahwehism. What the Christian Identity movement and the Christian Reconstructionist movement have in common is their postmillennialism. Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net ... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be called a universal. - Wm. of Ockham, Summa Logicae, part I Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: ...a humiliating torment
Yes. That is Gary North. He has since dissociated himself from Christian reconstructionism and has started associating with Christian Identity types. Yeah, that was the guy I was thinking of. I didn't realize he had gone over to Christian Identity, though I was aware he had broken with Roshdoonie. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: ...a humiliating torment
On 7/31/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are certainly no shortage of fundamentalist Christians who hate Islam but think that the Old Testament is full of wisdom and guidance. I doesn't take alot of imagination to think that implementing the OT would be a good idea. Dear Gilberto, Strictly speaking the Reconstructionalists are not Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are typically Dispensationalists, a position quite the opposite of Reconstructionalism. Both both the Reconstructionists and Fundamentalists both are a part of Christian efforts to implement a particular vision of Biblical values onto the larger society. They both tend to be a part of the religious Right. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
