Re: Just governments...
Ian, All duly noted. I understand the point you were trying to make now. I would love to learn more about the individual Baha'is during the Third Reich. Rich Ian Kluge wrote: Dear Rich, I, too, remember our meeting fondly and likewise hope that this finds you and your family well. Let me add as a prefatory note that Im sure some people are wondering about why we are discussing this in such detail on Bahai Studies. However, I think it is important to get all this straight to help us understand the decisions made by Shoghi Effendi as well as the conduct of Bahais in the Third Reich. Im sorry for not communicating clearly. Let me try and clarify what I meant to say. I did not say, or mean to imply that the Nazi government was not duly constituted because (a) Hitler only got 37% of the vote in Germanys last free election, or because of (b) Stalins refusal to have the Communists join an anti-Nazi coalition which could have prevented Hitler from coming to power. We too have minority governments in Canada indeed, have one right now and it is quite duly constituted. (BTW, doesnt Bush have a majority?) What specifically makes Hitlers government not duly constituted is the fraudulent election of March 5, 1933. Just prior to March 5 Hitler set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933 as an excuse to suppress the Social Democrats and Communists during the election. Moreover, he had no legitimate authority to ban all political demonstrations except by the Nazis or to use the SA to intimidate and arrest members of rival parties. Nor, of course, did he have authority to set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933)! You write: He already had the government, so it was legally constituted. That the fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up his power doesn't change that. Ian: Its more complicated than that. Hitler took power *legally* in January 30, 1933, but took power *illegally* with election he called (Feb. 1, 1933) for March 5, 1933. The election itself was not duly constituted (as shown previously) nor was the post-election Reichstag since Social Democrats and Communists were forcibly and illegally prevented from taking their seats. The government was also not duly constituted because it used strong-arm tactics to force other smaller parties to approve giving Hitler the Enabling Laws. These laws existed in the Weimar Constitution but were not legitimately obtained by Hitler. Thus, I think the claim that the Nazis government after (and even starting with) the March 5, 1933 election was not duly constituted. In a variety of ways, the Nazis met the Guardians criteria for not being duly constituted and he acted wisely in disbanding the German NSA instead of co-operating with them. Defying Hitler in this way entailed considerable but unavoidable - risk for German Bahais. Id be curious to know how many of the men went into the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person could be beyond the reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS. Best wishes, Ian Kluge Thus, under Weimar law (and normal parliamentary practice) Hindenburg had to call on Hitler as the leader of the largest contingency in the Reichstag to form the government, which he did on January 8, 1933. He became chancelor because the Nazi's held the majority of seats in the Reichstag and he was the only one who could pull it off. You yourself said this was all legal under the Weimar Laws. Hitler them proceeded to take over *illegally.* The Nazis set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to give Hitler emergency governing powers with which he intimidated his political enemies. He then had another election and got 44% (still not 50% even at this point) of the vote, used the Brown Shirts to prevent socialists and communists who had been elected from taking their seats and pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws that gave him absolute dictatorial power. He already had the government, so it was legally constituted. That the fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up his power doesn't change that. This doesnt look duly elected to me. Nor just. Not to me either, but my definition of just and duly elected are a little diferrent. I have no love for the Nazis. Two uncles of mine were executed by them in Thessalonika for being in the underground and I'm damned proud of them. I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and that he disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a government that fit his criteria as legitimate if heinous. I hope you and your family are doing well. I still recall our last meeting fondly. Rich __
Re: Just governments...
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:45:44 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [many reasonable comments deleted] I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and that he disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a government that fit his criteria as legitimate if heinous. Maybe I misunderstood the example from earlier. I thought the Guardian had disbanded the community so that he wouldn't be disobeying. If the Nazis asked him where the German Bahais were, he could have just said no, I'll never turn them over. and that would have been disobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he could honestly say that the community didn't officially exist. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
Dear Gilberto, You wrote: If the Nazis asked him where the German Bahais were, he could have just said no, I'll never turn them over. and that would have been disobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he could honestly say that the community didn't officially exist. The Nazis didn't ask the Guardian anything... The German Baha'is sought the Guardian's advice after they were approached by the Gestapo. He then advised the German Baha'is to disband. There was no direct communication between the Nazis and Shoghi Effendi regarding Jewish/Baha'is. Initial post from Rich here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m44764.html to refresh your memory. Rich just left out some of the detail when he referred to the incident a second time. You've asked before about self-defense. This would be an example of defending fellow believers by the act of sacrificing the administrative structure of the Baha'i community in Germany for the protection of particular members -in that historical context. lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
In a message dated 2/10/2005 10:21:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do not know howeverwhere the fine line is. We sometimes forget how powerful spiritual virtues canbe, how much influence they have on the hearts andsoul of human beings. And that the Bahai faith isessentially and first and foremost in my view, aspiritual path, that aims for spiritualtransformation, The fact is that Baha`i's must draw the fine line for themselves. The institutions might give us advice for where to look or not to look, but the line for me is drawn by me. That places responsibility squarely upon me. That is not comfortable, but at least I acknowledge that I am responsible for my actions and Icannot trust others to do it for me and be ethical. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
Hitler was never elected Chancellor; in Germanys last truly democratic election, he pulled 37% of the vote, which means that 63% of voters opted for various other parties. A government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote if that's a majority. Look at us south of your border. Stalin then ordered the Communist Party *not* to form an anti-Nazi alliance with the Social Democrats (together they could out vote the Nazis.). So the vote got split. As much I dislike our current President I don't claim the government is illegal because Nader split the vote. Thus, under Weimar law (and normal parliamentary practice) Hindenburg had to call on Hitler as the leader of the largest contingency in the Reichstag to form the government, which he did on January 8, 1933. He became chancelor because the Nazi's held the majority of seats in the Reichstag and he was the only one who could pull it off. You yourself said this was all legal under the Weimar Laws. Hitler them proceeded to take over *illegally.* The Nazis set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to give Hitler emergency governing powers with which he intimidated his political enemies. He then had another election and got 44% (still not 50% even at this point) of the vote, used the Brown Shirts to prevent socialists and communists who had been elected from taking their seats and pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws that gave him absolute dictatorial power. He already had the government, so it was legally constituted. That the fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up his power doesn't change that. This doesnt look duly elected to me. Nor just. Not to me either, but my definition of just and duly elected are a little diferrent. I have no love for the Nazis. Two uncles of mine were executed by them in Thessalonika for being in the underground and I'm damned proud of them. I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and that he disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a government that fit his criteria as legitimate if heinous. I hope you and your family are doing well. I still recall our last meeting fondly. Rich __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
In a message dated 2/11/2005 9:46:34 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote if that's a majority. Look at us south of your border. Wrong terms! A majority is more than 50%. A PLURALITY is the most votes received even if it is less than 50%. In the United States there have been a number of presidents elected to office without a majority of popular vote - Harry Truman comes immediately to mind. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
In a message dated 2/12/2005 1:54:35 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe I misunderstood the example from earlier. I thought the Guardianhad disbanded the community so that he wouldn't be disobeying. If theNazis asked him where the German Bahais were, he could have just said"no, I'll never turn them over." and that would have beendisobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he couldhonestly say that the community didn't officially exist.PeaceGilberto It would have been HIS disobedience for which the German Baha`i's of Jewish heritage would have suffered rather than he. I don't think anyone would find that an ethical solution. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
At 23:26 -0500 2/11/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/11/2005 9:46:34 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote if that's a majority. Look at us south of your border. Wrong terms! A majority is more than 50%. A PLURALITY is the most votes received even if it is less than 50%. In the United States there have been a number of presidents elected to office without a majority of popular vote - Harry Truman comes immediately to mind. What about 1824? Andrew Jackson rcvd 43 per cent of the popular vote and 99 electoral votes; but since that was not 50 per cent of the electoral college, it was thrown into House of Representatives. John Quincy Adams had rcvd 30 per cent of the vote and 84 ballots, William Crawford - 13 per cent of the vote and 43 ballots, Henry Clay - 13 per cent of the vote and 37 ballots. Clay threw his support to Adams, who became president with the votes of 13 of the 24 states. Think of the uproar that would cause now! Since then, the following American Presidents have failed to receive 50 per cent of the popular vote - Polk - 1844 Taylor 1848 Buchanan - 1856 Lincoln - 1860 Hayes - 1876 Garfield 1880 Cleveland - 1884 Harrison 1888 Cleveland 1892 Wilson - 1912/1916 Truman 1948 Kennedy - 1960 Nixon - 1968 Clinton - 1992/1996 Bush 2000 Don C -- He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:30:04 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, You wrote: If the Nazis asked him where the German Bahais were, he could have just said no, I'll never turn them over. and that would have been disobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he could honestly say that the community didn't officially exist. The Nazis didn't ask the Guardian anything... The German Baha'is sought the Guardian's advice after they were approached by the Gestapo. He then advised the German Baha'is to disband. There was no direct communication between the Nazis and Shoghi Effendi regarding Jewish/Baha'is. Ok, thanks for the clarification. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Just governments...
Dear Rich, I, too, remember our meeting fondly and likewise hope that this finds you and your family well. Let me add as a prefatory note that Im sure some people are wondering about why we are discussing this in such detail on Bahai Studies. However, I think it is important to get all this straight to help us understand the decisions made by Shoghi Effendi as well as the conduct of Bahais in the Third Reich. Im sorry for not communicating clearly. Let me try and clarify what I meant to say. I did not say, or mean to imply that the Nazi government was not duly constituted because (a) Hitler only got 37% of the vote in Germanys last free election, or because of (b) Stalins refusal to have the Communists join an anti-Nazi coalition which could have prevented Hitler from coming to power. We too have minority governments in Canada indeed, have one right now and it is quite duly constituted. (BTW, doesnt Bush have a majority?) What specifically makes Hitlers government not duly constituted is the fraudulent election of March 5, 1933. Just prior to March 5 Hitler set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933 as an excuse to suppress the Social Democrats and Communists during the election. Moreover, he had no legitimate authority to ban all political demonstrations except by the Nazis or to use the SA to intimidate and arrest members of rival parties. Nor, of course, did he have authority to set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933)! You write: He already had the government, so it was legally constituted. That the fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up his power doesn't change that. Ian: Its more complicated than that. Hitler took power *legally* in January 30, 1933, but took power *illegally* with election he called (Feb. 1, 1933) for March 5, 1933. The election itself was not duly constituted (as shown previously) nor was the post-election Reichstag since Social Democrats and Communists were forcibly and illegally prevented from taking their seats. The government was also not duly constituted because it used strong-arm tactics to force other smaller parties to approve giving Hitler the Enabling Laws. These laws existed in the Weimar Constitution but were not legitimately obtained by Hitler. Thus, I think the claim that the Nazis government after (and even starting with) the March 5, 1933 election was not duly constituted. In a variety of ways, the Nazis met the Guardians criteria for not being duly constituted and he acted wisely in disbanding the German NSA instead of co-operating with them. Defying Hitler in this way entailed considerable but unavoidable - risk for German Bahais. Id be curious to know how many of the men went into the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person could be beyond the reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS. Best wishes, Ian Kluge Thus, under Weimar law (and normal parliamentary practice) Hindenburg had to call on Hitler as the leader of the largest contingency in the Reichstag to form the government, which he did on January 8, 1933. He became chancelor because the Nazi's held the majority of seats in the Reichstag and he was the only one who could pull it off. You yourself said this was all legal under the Weimar Laws. Hitler them proceeded to take over *illegally.* The Nazis set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to give Hitler emergency governing powers with which he intimidated his political enemies. He then had another election and got 44% (still not 50% even at this point) of the vote, used the Brown Shirts to prevent socialists and communists who had been elected from taking their seats and pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws that gave him absolute dictatorial power. He already had the government, so it was legally constituted. That the fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up his power doesn't change that. This doesnt look duly elected to me. Nor just. Not to me either, but my definition of just and duly elected are a little diferrent. I have no love for the Nazis. Two uncles of mine were executed by them in Thessalonika for being in the underground and I'm damned proud of them. I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and that he disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a government that fit his criteria as legitimate if heinous. I hope you and your family are doing well. I still recall our last meeting fondly. Rich __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -
Re: Just governments...
In a message dated 2/12/2005 4:04:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Id be curious to know how many of the men went into the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person could be beyond the reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS. Well, it was not entirely a safe place for those judged untermenschen. The SA came to an end during the night of the long knives. Also known as the Reichsmordwoche (The Blood Purge), took place over the night and early morning of SUnday July 1st, 1934. The Sturm Abteilung came to an abrupt end that night, parts of it were re-absorbed into the SS or the Wehrmacht. Other than that little discrepancy, I agree with your analysis completely. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Just governments...
Dear Scott, Reichsmordwoche (!!!) Wow I havent heard that term for years i.e. since the death of my father who lived in Berlin at the time as a lawyer. You realise, of course, that it was a sarcastic term and implied criticism of the Fuehrer and the SS and using it in the wrong circumstances get a person a little trip to jail or concentration camp. Of course, we must recall that it occurred over a year after Hitler seized power (die Machtubernahme) in March, 1933. It emphasises the illegal nature of the regime and also the ruthlessness with which Hitler suppressed all opposition. A lot of political opponents to the Reich joined the Wehrmacht to be safe from Gestapo and SS in what was called the inner emigration, i.e. emigration within the nation (die innere Emigration) as distinct from emigration to abroad. Service as medics would have been acceptable to Bahais. To be clear: the SA (Sturmabteiling) per se did not end in the Night of the Long Knives. Lutze was its next leader. What ended was the SA as the Nazis left, i.e. truly socialist wing, those, who like Roehm were not merely intense nationalists but also genuine socialists. Best wishes, Ian Kluge From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 3:54 PM To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: Just governments... In a message dated 2/12/2005 4:04:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Id be curious to know how many of the men went into the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person could be beyond the reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS. Well, it was not entirely a safe place for those judged untermenschen. The SA came to an end during the night of the long knives. Also known as the Reichsmordwoche (The Blood Purge), took place over the night and early morning of SUnday July 1st, 1934. The Sturm Abteilung came to an abrupt end that night, parts of it were re-absorbed into the SS or the Wehrmacht. Other than that little discrepancy, I agree with your analysis completely. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
In a message dated 2/12/2005 6:47:44 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To be clear: the SA (Sturmabteiling) per se did not end in the Night of the Long Knives. Lutze was its next leader. What ended was the SA as the Nazis left, i.e. truly socialist wing, those, who like Roehm were not merely intense nationalists but also genuine socialists. Hitler's betrayal of Roehm after he had guaranteed him amnesty to return and run the brownshirt wing of the party was the sure and certain proof that Hitler's ambitions left no room for loyalty to others. It was of course, the price tag the Junkers and the army placed on their cooperation - an end to Roehm's threat to the sanctity of the Prussian leadership. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Just governments...
Dear Gilberto, One of the difficulties encountered when Baha'is give answers off the top of their head about the Baha'i Faith is that it is generally an abbreviated explanation. The common denominator here, is the Sacred texts of the Baha'i Faith and the source for the most thorough explanation. Which is why so many of us choose to refer you back to the Writings of the Central Figures. With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there is a qualifier that seems to be missing from the discussion. That word is just. Obedience to JUST governments. It is incumbent upon every man, in this Day, to hold fast unto whatsoever will promote the interests, and exalt the station, of all nations and just governments. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 94) Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Just governments...
Sandra wrote: With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there is a qualifier that seems to be missing from the discussion. That word is just. Obedience to JUST governments. *** This highlights the issue which has been in many ways most problematic since becoming a Baha'i. Living in a nation which has become more and more a symbol of evil to much of the world, and under an administration which seems to suffer a real disconnect from reality, one cannot help but wonder at the limits of restraints on civil disobedience. Of course, there is the problem that different people will define words such as evil, just, and reality, to suit themselves. I find it helpful to fall back on the Bahá'í writings which state that the old order must inevitably fall under its own weight, and conclude that current events amply illustrate this. David Lambert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:15:08 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, One of the difficulties encountered when Baha'is give answers off the top of their head about the Baha'i Faith is that it is generally an abbreviated explanation. Thanks I try to appreciate that. The common denominator here, is the Sacred texts of the Baha'i Faith and the source for the most thorough explanation. Which is why so many of us choose to refer you back to the Writings of the Central Figures. With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there is a qualifier that seems to be missing from the discussion. That word is just. Obedience to JUST governments. Ok. -Gilberto -- pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:43:31 -0800, David Lambert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sandra wrote: With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there is a qualifier that seems to be missing from the discussion. That word is just. Obedience to JUST governments. This highlights the issue which has been in many ways most problematic since becoming a Baha'i. Living in a nation which has become more and more a symbol of evil to much of the world, and under an administration which seems to suffer a real disconnect from reality, one cannot help but wonder at the limits of restraints on civil disobedience. That's sort of an interesting way to put it. It still seems really odd to think that even when being civil and non-violent, that political behavior might still have other constraints put on it. Of course, there is the problem that different people will define words such as evil, just, and reality, to suit themselves. I find it helpful to fall back on the Bahá'í writings which state that the old order must inevitably fall under its own weight, and conclude that current events amply illustrate this. Isn't that kind of sad? You see society crashing down and basically you just sit out until something new comes along? -GIlberto -- pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Just governments...
Gilberto wrote: It still seems really odd to think that even when being civil and non-violent, that political behavior might still have other constraints put on it. As I understand the Bahá'í teachings, politics are considered divisive and as such to be avoided. That does not mean one cannot vote, and it certainly does not forbid social activism. The concept of unity, and the avoidance of divisiveness, suffuse all the Bahá'í teachings. Isn't that kind of sad? You see society crashing down and basically you just sit out until something new comes along? Yes, that would be sad. However, avoiding partisan politics does not leave this as the only alternative. We are enjoined to find positive and constructive ways to change society. And we are taught that the events we see around us are part of a historical trend that must occur. My original remark was that as someone who has been very active in political and social causes in the past, I find it the teachings on obedience to government and avoiding partisan politics to be challenging. I apologize if I was unclear about that. As Sandra pointed out, obedience is not meant to be mindless. I pointed out that the definition of words like just and evil can be problematic. In my opinion, they can be so problematic that an individual should think long and hard before committing civil disobedience. In other words, it is best to seek both advice and consensus before acting, at least as a Bahá'í. Nowhere did I state that one should sit passively until something new comes along. David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there is a "qualifier" that seems to be missing from the discussion. That word is "just". Obedience to JUST governments. Hi everyone, Just wading in briefly. If I remember right, Shoghi Effendi defined a just government as one legally formed under the laws of the given country in question. A glaring example was Nazi Germany. A horror to be sure, but duly elected under the laws of the Weimar Republic. If I remember the story, the Gestapo demanded that they turn over the names of Baha'is of Jewish descent. They cabled the Guardian who immediately ordered them to disband, thus there was no Baha'i Community to comply and no Baha'i Community throughout the Nazi Era. At least thats the story I heard, I'd love to read a history of the Faith in Germany during that time. As to just standing by, we are allowed to exercise our right to protest in countries where it is legal. We must do so as individuals and not as representatives of the Baha'i Faith. That's the advice that National gave to my wife and I when we asked if we could march against the WTO in Seattle, which we did on the first day. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Just governments...
With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... thereis a qualifier that seems to be missing from the discussion.That word is just. Obedience to JUST governments. Dear Rich, You write: Just wading in briefly. If I remember right, Shoghi Effendi defined a just government as one legally formed under the laws of the given country in question. A glaring example was Nazi Germany. A horror to be sure, but duly elected under the laws of the Weimar Republic. Ian: Sorry, but a couple of points of history. Duly elected is not really the accurate phrase. Hitler was never elected Chancellor; in Germanys last truly democratic election, he pulled 37% of the vote, which means that 63% of voters opted for various other parties. Stalin then ordered the Communist Party *not* to form an anti-Nazi alliance with the Social Democrats (together they could out vote the Nazis.). Thus, under Weimar law (and normal parliamentary practice) Hindenburg had to call on Hitler as the leader of the largest contingency in the Reichstag to form the government, which he did on January 8, 1933. Hitler them proceeded to take over *illegally.* The Nazis set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27, 1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to give Hitler emergency governing powers with which he intimidated his political enemies. He then had another election and got 44% (still not 50% even at this point) of the vote, used the Brown Shirts to prevent socialists and communists who had been elected from taking their seats and pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws that gave him absolute dictatorial power. This doesnt look duly elected to me. Nor just. Best wishes, Ian __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
At 12:15 -0900 2/10/05, Sandra Chamberlain wrote: Dear Gilberto, One of the difficulties encountered when Baha'is give answers off the top of their head about the Baha'i Faith is that it is generally an abbreviated explanation. The common denominator here, is the Sacred texts of the Baha'i Faith and the source for the most thorough explanation. Which is why so many of us choose to refer you back to the Writings of the Central Figures. With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there is a qualifier that seems to be missing from the discussion. That word is just. Obedience to JUST governments. 1463. Obedience to Just Governments--What It Means Regarding your question about politics and the Master's Will: The attitude of the Baha'is must be two-fold, complete obedience to the government of the country they reside in, and no interference whatsoever in political matters or questions. What the Master's statement really means is obedience to a duly constituted Government, whatever that Government may be in form. We are not the ones, as individual Baha'is, to judge our Government as just or unjust--for each believer would be sure to hold a different viewpoint, and within our own Baha'i fold a hotbed of dissension would spring up and destroy our unity. We must build up our Baha'i system, and leave the faulty systems of the world to go their way. We cannot change them through becoming involved in them; on the contrary, they will destroy us. The Guardian does not think any part of this statement of his is suitable for publication in the Press. The less 'politics' is associated in any way with the name Baha'i, the better. It should always be made clear that we are a religious non-political community, working for humanitarian ends. (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Teaching Committee for Central America, July 3, 1948) --Lights of Guidance, Page 451 Don C -- He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
First of all, the Bahai faith puts a lot of emphasis on the spiritual approach. Bahai communities and individual Bahais do not always get that that the world is to be transformed by spiritual means. Simply put, when a Bahai fails to exemplify the Bahai teachings to some extend, the teachings will not be regarded by others as worthy of being followed. The more a Bahai is able to exemplify in his or her life the Bahai teachings, the more people will see the worth of the Bahai teachigns and the more influential that person will become, influential in an area that matters: the heart and souls of people. Now I am not good at this either ;o) I think this is one way where Bahais can change the world around them. By living the teachings, especially those about kindness, loving your enemy, having a bright and radiant heart and face, looking upon each person with love and in the understanding that they are creatures of God and rejoicing in their spiritual qualities they put forth. Being free from prejudice. And then making people aware of the teachings of the Bahai faith. It sounds simple but doing the above I find very hard to do. Yet it is the only way which will reach the hearts of people, enough people to change the world. I wondered how Bahais could have reacted who are put in a situation where one country occupies another. No civil obedience, apparently. So what coudl they do? And I can see that a strategy where there is sincere love for people, where one has his./her thoughts focussed on God and radiates love and freedom of prejudice, would influence people around them. If they then combine this with telling others about the Bahai faith, it will have an effect on people. I heard of some Iranian Bahais in Iran who, when their house was entered by force by policemen/guards to have it plundered, offered them a meal, and helped them loading their possessions on vehicles that is the kind of attitude I am talking about. How can you feel hostile and not feel ashamed of your deeds, when the ones you are about to chase from their homes welcome you as if you were an honoured guest? However, not everybody is able to do this. So Assemblies are formed and guidance is given through those means as well. There are things we can do as Bahais... I can see that if Rosa Parks had been a Bahai and had refused still while being Bahai to give her seat to a white person, she would not be considered to be civilly disobedient perse by the Bahai institutions. I do not know however where the fine line is. We sometimes forget how powerful spiritual virtues can be, how much influence they have on the hearts and soul of human beings. And that the Bahai faith is essentially and first and foremost in my view, a spiritual path, that aims for spiritual transformation, from which a material transformation comes. If we try it the other way around, we will create communities without spirit, and an administrative order which mechanically functions but has no spirit. wishing you well, janine van rooij dublin, ireland __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
In a message dated 2/10/2005 5:33:11 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Isn't that kind of sad? You see society crashing down and basicallyyou just sit out until something new comes along? We're promised that as the old order disintegrates, the new order is built up. In other words, this is a natural process of renewal. As to just sitting there? Come on, Gilberto - here we are, here you are. This dialogue is anything but just sitting there. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Just governments...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:19:30 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/10/2005 5:33:11 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Isn't that kind of sad? You see society crashing down and basically you just sit out until something new comes along? We're promised that as the old order disintegrates, the new order is built up. In other words, this is a natural process of renewal. As to just sitting there? Come on, Gilberto - here we are, here you are. This dialogue is anything but just sitting there. I would consider dialoguing just sitting out, however useful. -Gilberto -- pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
