equality feminist.
From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 5:45:51 PM
Subject: Re: Religion and Women
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And there is a difference between being male and men
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On 4 Nov 2010 at 8:57, Naison Jones wrote:
since perfection in two unequal parts comes through relative strengths
in their most suitable roles then true equality comes through apparent
inequality or distribution of roles.
When you say such things, it appears to
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They are equal in one sense. ie their value is the same they are both human
beings. In another sense they are not equal.
I have probably ranted too much though.
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I think putting it that way makes sense. In mathematical contexts I'm
used to equal meaning the same in every way. So in other
contexts, especially if you are dealing with controversial subjects
(e.g. religion, politics) it is usually helpful to acknowledge that
what
Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 4:31:10 AM
Subject: Re: Religion and Women
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On 4 Nov 2010 at 8:57, Naison Jones wrote:
since perfection in two unequal parts comes through relative strengths
in their most suitable roles then true equality comes through apparent
inequality
)
From: Naison Jones naistrada...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 9:22:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Content Advisory] Re: [Content Advisory] Re: [Content Advisory]
Re: Religion and Women
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I guarentee you if you stick
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The foucs on gender is what's sexist, both traditional and oppositional.
Feminists would rather have us see individuals who are male and individuals who
are female rather than men and women. Each individual in the world is equal.
They are the same in potentials and
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Feminists would rather have us see individuals who are male and individuals
who are female rather than men and women.
And there is a difference between being male and men or being female or women?
Each individual in the world is
equal. They are the same in
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And there is a difference between being male and men or being female or women?
To my mind, yes there is a difference. I would use male and female
to refer to horses or dogs or plants. I would use man or woman to
refer to human beings.
Tim
All good art is about
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There are obvious physiological differences between male and female, but I
would be cautious to set up definite, unchanging laws that dictate the sexes
behaviors. Statements like this is what a man does, this is what a woman
does, make me cringe, because we are all
babies are. People go through gender conditioning
which
tends to do more with nurture than nature.
From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 3:37:09 PM
Subject: Re: Religion and Women
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And there is a difference between being male and men or being female or women?
To my mind, yes there is a difference. I would use male and female
to refer to horses or dogs or plants. I would use man or woman to
refer to human beings.
Yes, and males and females
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On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Feminists would rather have us see individuals who are male and individuals
who are female rather than men and women.
And there is a difference between being male and
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Yes, I think we understand one another.
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:46 AM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote:
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Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how
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I am disinclined to keep going on this if it's going to turn into an
argument.
I have to reply in short cos i am at work.
-I am not claiming any ascendancy over 'acedemics'.
- But in any case there are apparent differences in man and woman
that go beyond the
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On 3 Nov 2010 at 10:03, Naison Jones wrote:
True equality can Never exist between man and women because they are
different. All is meant in Bahai is that women have the same spiritual
rank as men and that implies 'true equality' not the equality of tasks
and
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I don't believe he did say that only men could be on the House of
Justice. He used a word (rijal) which refers to men in Arabic, but in
Persian is an honorific, and can refer to women.
Except the Aqdas is in Arabic, not Persian. But the real issue is not
what
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Perhaps you didn't intend it this way, but the basic form of your
argument was to say that Naison was wrong because he was echoing
Muslim arguments.
Dear Gilberto,
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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As a Muslim, I agree with you. But I think I understand where Susan
is coming from in regards to her own religion's view. The Baha'i Faith (in
my understanding) is a
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
LOL. You are talking to someone whose father was a cook! He served in
the military during the Korean War. They had him guarding the border
at San Diego against wetbacks.
WTF!! Don't say wetback.
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But Christianity AND Islam AND the Bahai faith include statements in
their writings which make distinctions between the roles of men and
women in society.
Dear Gilberto,
The question is do we make the same distinctions? The House of Justice
calls the distinctions
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Dear Iskandar,
Of course we all have reasons why we choose a particular path over others,
and that they speak to us more fully than the others - hence why we identify
ourselves as such. I think it is possible for one to do that without being
supremacist. For example, I
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And the Bahai faith affirms a belief in the equality of men and women
in the same breath that it prohibits women from serving on its highest
body, prohibits women as the givers of life from serving in combat,
has different rules for women around menstruation and
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Susan, are you trying to use the literary equivalent of cinema verite
here? ;-)
I'm just recounting it the way I remember my father describing it.
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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But Christianity AND Islam AND the Bahai faith include statements in
their writings which make distinctions between the roles of men and
women in society.
Dear
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I think that depends on which interpretations you look to. There are
definitely Christian groups (e.g. the Quakers) who are more
egalitarian than the Bahai faith where gender in no way shape or form
is related to differences in roles or treatment. The picture is more
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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And the Bahai faith affirms a belief in the equality of men and women
in the same breath that it prohibits women from serving on its highest
body, prohibits women as
, 2010 4:00:25 PM
Subject: Re: Religion and Women
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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And the Bahai faith affirms a belief in the equality of men and women
in the same breath that it prohibits women from
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I think that depends on which interpretations you look to. There are
definitely Christian groups (e.g. the Quakers) who are more
egalitarian than the Bahai faith where gender in no way shape or form
is related to differences in roles or treatment. The picture is
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Of course Rodwell was non-Muslim and has translation hasn't held up
well. Yusuf Ali renders the passage:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has
given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support
them from their
@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 4:14:16 PM
Subject: Re: Religion and Women
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Of course Rodwell was non-Muslim and has translation hasn't held up
well. Yusuf Ali renders the passage:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has
given the one
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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.
His words, not mine.
You chose to repeat them.
Whatever he called them he was very sympathetic
to plight of illegal immigrants and believed we ought to open our
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Yes The Bahai faith is very different in the sense the equality of men and
women has become manifest. Ie the spiritual truth of their equality is now
shown forth in the material life.
What I was talking about is talking more philisofically true equality is a
utopean
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Let me elucidate.
Lets say the woman stays home and cares for the children and the man goes
forth and wins bread. All the femininist will say you are being sexist
(unequal).
In fact this is just the distribution of resources into their natural
strengths and roles. If
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It is impracticle and undesirable to say men and women should have the same
roles in a marraige.
If you want to balance equal raising of children perfectly between them it
is very difficult to reconcile this with steady jobs.
Not only that, it is a cause for disunity
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I guarentee you if you stick to the principle of equality in a Bahai
marraige you will see this comes from inequality.
Otherwise your marraige wil suck. It will be like No dear its now your turn
to drop off the kids, No i did this last time its your turn.
No I was
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Not only that. The otherway implies because everything has to be perfectly
equal there is no sacrifice because we must be violating a Bahai principle.
Is that what you think? That is a selfish marraige. What if one of you falls
sick. And the other takes care for you
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The point, dear Matt, is that at the end of the day and in the final
analysis you choose one religion (or no religion for that matter) over
others. And this should not irk you. If it does, so be it. You chose Islam
and I chose the Baha'i Faith. If this irks an atheist
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
wrote:
Of course Rodwell was non-Muslim and has translation hasn't held up
well. Yusuf Ali renders the passage:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has
given
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Hi,
I want to share some thoughts not from a so-called scholarly perspective but
more a 'spiritual-inights' one.
True equality can Never exist between man and women because they are
different. All is meant in Bahai is that women have the same spiritual rank
as men and
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That is precisely the argument Muslims make and if buy into it we have
made no progress whatsoever over the past dispensation.
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Naison Jones naistrada...@gmail.com wrote:
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Hi,
I want to share some thoughts
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I want to share some thoughts not from a so-called scholarly perspective but
more a 'spiritual-inights' one.
I should add since the only distinctions between men and women are
physical ones your argument is more of a material perspective than a
spiritual one.
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Ok fair enough. I was just giving food for thought not making a 'full
argument' as such.
But in any case there are apparent differences in man and woman
that go beyond the physical. Even still physical differences necessitate
different roles in the physical world. Why
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I think its a bit harsh to say my argument shows no progress over Muslim
doctrine.
With the emphasis on education for women that Baha'u'llah gives they can
achieve outward equality with men. Though what i was saying is this does not
mean woman and men will have
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Wow, that's a really insulting ad hominem counter-argument which is
really irrelevant to what was said. The Bahai faith all by its
lonesome makes certain distinctions between men and women (e.g.
membership in the house of justice, prohibition from military service,
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Signs in nature of harmony coming through apparent inequality:
the queen bee (female) and all the worker bees. A necessary inequality for
the hive to thrive and function.
Ants. Woker and ants and ants of varying roles (soldier ants) etc and the
queen ant.
Through these
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Naison, I wasn't criticizing your explanation or metaphor. I was being
critical of Susan's complaint that you were echoing what Muslims say.
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Naison Jones naistrada...@gmail.com wrote:
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Signs in nature of
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Ok fair enough. I was just giving food for thought not making a 'full
argument' as such.
Sorry if I responded sharply but I get pretty touchy when people imply
that their own perspective is somehow more 'spiritual' than us
'academics.'
But in any case there are
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On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Wow, that's a really insulting ad hominem counter-argument which is
really irrelevant to what was said.
It is not an issue of being ad hominem.
Perhaps you didn't
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*Sure, and the same is true of Islam... both in terms of how Muslims
understand Islamic general roles, or, in this case, how non-Muslims at
times go too far in attributing problematic gender roles to Islam per
se. As I've said to you before, if you really believe that
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