Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Sam, you are conflating the concerns. This is not ON/OFF logic, with a possibly more than one dimension of shading and positioning one (relatively extreme) case as the norm for how to interact, is not the way to deal with this. (analogy; "Person killed in traffic. Ban all cars.") Niclas On Thu,

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Agreed with Sam. Saying "ignore it" ensures our communities will only be made up of people who are hardy enough or privileged enough to be able to ignore such things. We're not enforcing people's feelings of safety. Nor are we enforcing people's happiness. Of course, we could never do that. They

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > > 3. IGNORE IT > > You don't have to read what other people write, you don't have to > internalize it and you may convince others to do the same. For 20 years, > this was the number one defense against trolls and

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:54 AM, Noah Slater wrote: > Okay, back to the topic. > Ok, good. > Perhaps we should update the code of conduct. It seems that a lot of the > unease here relates to the nature of our planned responses to conduct > infractions. > That is one part,

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Okay, back to the topic. Perhaps we should update the code of conduct. It seems that a lot of the unease here relates to the nature of our planned responses to conduct infractions. I can tell you how I see it, as one of the people behind the work that went into our code of conduct. There are

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

This is the last email I am going to send on the specifics of me not liking the response I got on this thread. I have a follow-up email that will hopefully get us back on topic. Here's an excerpt of what you chose to email me privately: > Now, you have claimed that you have been suffering from

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Not sure how we got here. I wasn't suggesting we update our code of conduct. Niclas was attacking the concept of "safety", so I was providing a concrete example of someone (me) who does not feel safe. Niclas’s response is an example of the sort of thing that has contributed to me not feeling

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On 11/15/16, 9:03 AM, "Patricia Shanahan" wrote: >That should be "example of undesirable behavior". One could obviously >write a rule that prohibits using words with more than three syllables >in e-mails. Personally, I don't think "rules", "standards" and "policies" are in play

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Shane Curcuru wrote: > Sam Ruby wrote on 11/15/16 3:41 PM: >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > ... >> First, if you are not convinced, don't participate. All we ask is that >> you don't actively

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

That should be "example of undesirable behavior". One could obviously write a rule that prohibits using words with more than three syllables in e-mails. On 11/15/2016 8:56 AM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: What I am looking for is an example of behavior that is permitted by the current code of

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

What I am looking for is an example of behavior that is permitted by the current code of conduct but that could be prohibited by a practical, enforceable set of rules. On 11/15/2016 8:28 AM, Noah Slater wrote: What are you looking for, exactly? I'm not sure what a "use-case" is in this

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

What are you looking for, exactly? I'm not sure what a "use-case" is in this context. We have a concrete example of what not to do in this very thread already. I was contacted off-list by Niclas making it clear he expected me to provide proof that would "convince" him that I wasn't trying to

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On 11/15/2016 6:48 AM, Noah Slater wrote: ... You want some sort of "record" to consume. Is a person, on a mailing list, saying "hey this place was so bad for me I had to take a break" not evidence enough for you that something might be wrong? As for the rest of it, this org keeps records of

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Sam Ruby wrote on 11/15/16 3:41 PM: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: ... > First, if you are not convinced, don't participate. All we ask is that > you don't actively prevent others from doing so. Go Sharan and > others! ... +1. We have at least

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

If someone in an org I cared about told me they had to take a break for over a year because it was too damaging for their emotional health I would be extremely alarmed. My first response would be more to the tune of "oh wow, I'm so sorry, that's so awful." I certainly would not immediately jump

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > Noah, > ASF has not gotten to where it is by generalizations and abstractions of > nonexistent issues. Whenever anyone brings up a hypothetical, be it in > Legal or Membership quorums, the response is that we deal with

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Noah, ASF has not gotten to where it is by generalizations and abstractions of nonexistent issues. Whenever anyone brings up a hypothetical, be it in Legal or Membership quorums, the response is that we deal with it when there are actual usecases. I am asking for examples, some type of record to

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Again this is not the world we occupy. There is no litmus test for who can join our lists and participate. Safety remains a priority that needs to be addressed- not for the majority, but for those occasional cases where it can and does take place here. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 14, 2016,

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Please forgive my ignorance on the matter, but isn't this a prestigious Open Source software Foundation? For such top engineers you think you would have less safety concerns. Perhaps this is the Linux foundation's influence on the ASF? Perhaps Schneier can comment on your seeming "Culture of

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

I took a leave of absence from the ASF for over a year (my previous email on this thread was one of my first since returning) precisely because the treatment I got on these mailing lists was so deleterious for my mental health that I had to take a break, for my safety. Positioning *war* as the

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On 14/11/2016 00:52, Niclas Hedhman wrote: > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:58 AM, Sharan Foga wrote: > >> *General Diversity Approach and Strategy* >> I haven't had much time to update this on the wiki but once the committer >> survey is complete I will be able to perhaps tailor it

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:58 AM, Sharan Foga wrote: > *General Diversity Approach and Strategy* > I haven't had much time to update this on the wiki but once the committer > survey is complete I will be able to perhaps tailor it based on the results. > >

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 9:53 PM, Joan Touzet wrote: > ...I will note that CouchDB's Code of Conduct came first, and in fact was > the model for the Apache Code of Conduct... Yes, sorry that I omitted to mention that - big thanks to CouchDB for this! -Bertrand

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

- Original Message - > From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" > > Note that in the meantime there's > https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct - IMO it's better > if projects use that one, and if needed contribute improvements to > it. I will note that CouchDB's

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Noah Slater wrote: > Some things we did on CouchDB... >... - Create a Code of Conduct... Note that in the meantime there's https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct - IMO it's better if projects use that one, and if needed contribute

Re: Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Some things we did on CouchDB that I think could work for other projects: - Started a lot of discussions (some private, some public) regarding people's conduct on IRC, bug trackers, mailing lists etc (moving people to a more "yes, and" culture, encouraging friendly and open communication,

Encouraging Diversity - Update 6

Hi Everyone It's been a while since my last update as I've been away. I'm now starting to pick things up again so please see below for a brief update. *Women in Big Data* The WIBD group asked for a speaker to present to their members in the San Francisco area. Kathy Saunders responded and this