Dear Karthik, I am not here to test the remembering abilities of blind people. Even I cannot remember multiple math steps in my mind. For that matter, I will trouble my scribe to read again and again when it comes to long messy equations. I am sorry. Maybe I was not clear enough. Yes you are absolutely right. Scribe can track your intermediary steps and read them back to you any number of times but the scribe is not supposed to perform calculations on your behalf unless you tell specifics. In my view, scribe should not perform simple math calculation you quoted as that can be done by a blind person in the presence of a tailor frame. I do understand that IIT or other exams may not test you long calculations but if they do, there is a reason and every student is expected to perform those calculations on own. So I am not sure whether I agree with your statement which says that thee simple and long calculations can be done by the scribe. So I feel organizations should work with the examination boards to allow assistive technology with high security measures. Then wherever sited students are doing scratch work or small calculations, blind person can do them on the assistive technology. For example you might tell him to write down 1/2*5/7 but you may not tell him the final answer so the scribe should be able to ask you for the answer and not imply just because he or she worked with you previously. Of course where ever there is opportunity for scratch work, then blind students should be given to take tailor frame or computer with imposed restrictions. I know we are talking about specifics but lets come back to the big picture. I quoted number of problems of having an own scribe. So can you please site reasons for requesting own scribe if the examination center can provide scribe from the same subject background and can facilitate one hour previous interaction before the exam? You are a great man Karthik. You are an inspiration for real hard working blind people in India. I am amazed by your use of computer from the first standard. People like you should strive to convince examination boards to allow assistive technology or accessible tactile tools so that they can create fare experience for blind student. Finally, own scribe is a bad idea according to me. By the way, can you please explain how you were able to use computer? For example, did you go through any security checks before the exam or did they give you the computer?
-----Original Message----- From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 4:53 PM To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com Cc: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE Main guidelines Hi Srikanth, I may point out that the sighted students have the privilege of using a scratch paper for Mathematical computations. These exams do not just involve an OMR sheet, but provide you a lot of space for rough work throughout the test booklet. If sighted are allowed to perform scratch work, then there should not be a problem to have blind students do the same. Personally, I cannot keep track of a 4×4 matrix, its transpose, cofactor matrix and then the inverse in my mind (and so cannot the brightest student in my class). I need someone to keep record of these for me, especially since I have no tools or assistive technology. When a sighted studet is not expected to keep track of these values, then why should a blind student be expected to do so? Also, your definition of scribe is rather narrow. If you look up the definition of scribe (the ETS version which is followed for the conduct of the SAT test), you will realize that it permits scratch work in the absence of other tools. Also, realize that there is a difference in rephrasing a question, solving a question and keeping track of the intermediate steps. the first two are absolutely unacceptable, but the last should be absolutely fine. Further, we need to be very clear about the objective of the test in question. The IIT-JEE does not seek to measure your proficiency at calculations (6th grade exams are good for that); it seeks to measure your conceptual ability. Having someone calculate 4×6.022×10^23/6.626×10^-34×3×10^8 in the absence of taylor frame or spreadsheet application is fine in my view. However, the scribe plugging in those values without the candidate asking him to do so may be construed as unfair. Of course, the ideal mode will be to have the exam in Braille, E-text or audio (fortunately, that's slowly happening; I took my Board exams using a computer without a scribe). Best, -- -Kartik Sawhney, Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) Skype: kartik.sawhney22 On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Karthik, > I agree with you in terms of working out math or chemistry questions. > But please remember, scribes duty is to verbatim read the question and take > down the answer as you say but not imply in his own words. He is also not > supposed to reread the question in simple words or explain you the > situation > in his or her own words. Do you know? We make mistakes just because we > don't > understand the way the question is formatted though we know the concept > and the correct answer. This happens mainly in the coding. Implications can > be in many ways. Even if I give him wrong final value but the process is > correct, do you suggest that he should fix my final value by implying? > Sited > students will calculate the answer and mark on the answer sheet without > scratch paper, so why not us in the mind? We can give the scribe final > answer. If you tell the scribe to do the problem, he may make math error or > if you have to calculate that problem, you might make simple math error > which might get you wrong answer. Take your example, calculating the > inverse of a 3/3 or above, the process is extremely simple but we end up > making math errors due to lot of numbers. So this is something scribe > cannot > do for us. So indirectly, we are asking the scribe to solve a problem for > us > which is not fare. Since he worked with us before does not mean that he > should imply that you know the answer and write. In nervousness and under > time constraint, we end up making silly mistakes though we know the correct > answer. So why scribe should fix those mistakes? When sited students don't > have this competitive advantage of working with a person who knows the > answers, then why us? If you give me this privilege, I can go and crack > IIT-JE or gate or cat, or CA or IAS or ICW or any exam you can think of > without any problem. I have people who went through these exams and did not > clear or cleared. Since they know how to work on these exams, I can maybe > hit top rank or at least clear without much of my talent. Do you think > this > is not possible? We are talking about being fare but how many people will > use this opportunity fairly? If people are already using these kind of > opportunities well, then why problems of getting job or competing with main > stream society? I know many people who did not even go to college for one > days but got 90%. Do you think this is possible? I do however; understand > that the visual part is bad for us. for example, when I took SAT, globe > detective agency administered the test. They sat with us for the entire > duration of the test looking for the similarities of my answers and > scribe's > pen marks. So at least there should be someone proctoring the exam when own > scribe is given or it should be videotaped to ensure fare exam. people can > find 100 ways to miss use the opportunity. So before we make guidelines, we > have to consider all possibilities. I just would like to remind that > finding > the invers of a matrix might be tricky for a blind person but it would be > really easy since the sited student can see the numbers. I also propose > that the question paper should be given in brail audio or in print. Then > the > students can choose to opt his or her preference. Then he or she should be > able to record answers in to blank audio recorder. This way, he or she can > walk through the entire process so that the valuators can consider even if > the final answer is wrong. When we are talking about competitive exams > like > IIT, CA and CAT, most questions other than maybe few sections are > multiple > choice. So a student can be given a scribe for scribing the essay or > writing part and remaining questions, the student has to answer. As I > mentioned above, the definition of the scribe is to read questions verbatim > as on the test paper. he or she is not supposed to explain. So when test > paper is read by an experienced person in to audio tape or record, then > that > will be equal to a science or subject oriented scribe. If we don't make > strict but fare accommodations, then people will continue to miss use. For > example, as I mentioned, at MIT, I will not even know who the scribe is > till I enter the room. then we have to turn the video recorder on before > we > begin the exam. we are not supposed to talk each other about test > questions. Of course this is bit harsh but I believe this is fare. Regards, > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 3:35 PM > To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com; AccessIndia: a list for discussing > accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. > Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE > Main guidelines > > Hi Srikanth, > > While I agree with you for most part, I strongly feel that in competitive > exams like IIT-JEE and other entrance exams where speed is utmost > important, > it's important that you've worked with the scribe for quite sometime in > advance. consider this: you are not allowed the use of any assistive > technology for scratch work, and you're trying to solve a question in > linear > algebra (say calculating the inverse of a matrix), it'll take a very long > time explaining the scribe how the inverse is to be calculated. Instead, > you > would probably want to walk him through the process real quick, and since > he's already worked with you on a similar problem, he can understand what > you imply. Or, maybe, consider a question involving optical isomerism in > Organic Chemistry, you would probably want the configuration to be > described > in a particular non-ambiguous way, rather than wasting your time trying to > figure out how you want your scribe to explain that to you. To curve unfair > means, it is invigilation which needs to be strengthened. Isn't that done > to > curve the use of unfair means for sighted students? Then, why not for us? > > I'm aware of the situation that you've described, and it is indeed > deplorable. However, making such norms that inhibit genuine talent at the > cost of trying to ensure a fair exam is not, in my view, the best way to go > forward. Either we need to allow assistive technology to enable the blind > student to take the test independently and just rely on the scribe to > bubble > the responses, or we need to provide the candidate with a comfortable > atmosphere with strong invigilation. BTW, I, too, am totally against > segregating blind students for the purposes of taking exams. > > Best, > > On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Don't worry. I have your number now >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >> Behalf Of Kartik Sawhney >> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 2:34 PM >> To: accessindia >> Subject: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE >> Main guidelines >> >> Hi all, >> >> It gives me immense pleasure to share with you that CBSE has amended >> its rule for Joint Entrance Examination (main), the entrance >> examination for most of the tech schools in the country (also a >> qualifying exam for the IITs). Until last year, the Board allowed a >> non-Science scribe (from Commerce (without Mathematics) or Humanities) >> stream, and that too from class XI (two years junior to the >> candidate). this had several issues, most notably that the scribe will >> not be familiar with the technical symbols on the test, and hence will >> not > be able to convey those to the candidate. >> >> According to the information brochure for JEE Main 2014, there is no >> eligibility criteria for a scribe. Moreover, the candidate can opt to >> bring his/her own scribe. In case the candidate opts to use a scribe >> provided by the centre superintendent of the test centre, the >> superintendent needs to ensure that both the scribe and the candidate >> meet at least an hour before the examination to get comfortable with each > other. >> >> Unfortunately, nothing has been done to make the diagrams on the test >> accessible. Further, JEE Advanced (the entrance exam for IITs), allows >> a Science student as a scribe, but from class XI. It also does not >> allow the candidate to brin his/her own scribe. Despite all of this, I >> feel we are close. I would urge the organisations working for the >> blind to take this forward, and help future Science aspirants get the >> benefits of the elite education imparted at these institutes. >> >> The information brochures for both the exams are located on their >> respective websites at http://jeemain.nic.in and >> http://jeeadv.iitd.ac.in. >> >> Best, >> >> -- >> -Kartik Sawhney, >> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >> >> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_acc >> essind >> ia.org.in >> >> >> Search for old postings at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to >> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >> with the subject unsubscribe. >> >> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >> please visit the list home page at >> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org >> .in >> >> >> Disclaimer: >> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking >> of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its >> veracity; >> >> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >> mails sent through this mailing list.. >> >> >> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_acc >> essindia.org.in >> >> >> Search for old postings at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to >> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >> with the subject unsubscribe. >> >> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, >> please visit the list home page at >> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org >> .in >> >> >> Disclaimer: >> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking >> of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its >> veracity; >> >> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >> mails sent through this mailing list.. >> > > > -- > -Kartik Sawhney, > Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 > E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); > karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) > Skype: kartik.sawhney22 > > Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in Search for old postings at: http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ To unsubscribe send a message to accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in with the subject unsubscribe. To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, please visit the list home page at http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in Disclaimer: 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails sent through this mailing list..
