Guys, You both are certainly wasting time. I'm reading through each and every email on this thread and making my notes.
In fact, I am planning to get in touch with authorities in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh to see if we can change the scenario here. Also, Karthik, it's sad that we couldn't follow-up with IIIT before you move to the United States. Srikanth, let's talk sometime. Regards, Srinivasu Chakravarthula | PayPal | @VasuTweets Sent from my iPhone 4S > On 19-Nov-2013, at 9:52, "Srikanth Bolla" <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Karthik, > I am thrilled to get your detailed perspective on this problem. I hope > we both are not the only once writing back and forth and maybe wasting time > on this subject. Nice to know that CBSC gave their own computer and > invigilation. Sorry they did over in your case. Maybe this might be the > first time so it's just due to lack of awareness. Let me point out your > concern "that no talented student should miss out the opportunity due to > lack of accommodations" > I am also 100% with you on this. Personally, I lost so much due to lack of > proper accommodations in science subjects. Even I don't want any talented > student to get hindered by the discriminatory procedures, however, I > strictly don't want any unqualified student to pass out the exams with the > help from scribes. Talented students struggling are rare but unqualified > and unskilled people getting 100's are seen in high percentage. Of course > people on this list might debate on this point but once own consciousness > will tell the truth. Personally, I know unqualified people passing out with > more than 80%. Don't you think this is bad? I 100% agree with your point of > recording the entire session and allow own scribe. Then since there will be > video and audio, student and the scribe will have very less chance to cheat. > Recording the session also can bring out valid questions or concerns from > both parties. Then concern authorities can review and make necessary > accommodations in the education curriculum or in the examination system. I > know all this will not happen overnight but before we ask for own scribe, we > have to bring out these points. Everyone should be aware that bringing own > scribe means carrying extra responsibilities. Some of the specific questions > we are talking are more for science students. But in India for everything > people are requesting own scribes. For example, do you think bank exams or > IAS or other groups or teacher entrance involve any scientific notations? I > don't think so. If I am wrong, people can correct me. If the exam is > mainly literature based, then why do you need your own scribe? Same with > other non-science subjects. For nonscience subjects, you don't even need > scribe from the same background but I can take that easy. But I completely > oppose the idea of own scribe. Getting own scribe is simply an excuse to > pass without working for it. Mainly, assistive technology should be > permitted rather than own scribe. I don't think explaining about the > diagram or the molecular model is the duty of the scribe. Again, scribe's > duty is to read the question as given on the test paper and record answers > and take down scratch work as you say. So to overcome this problem, tactile > diagrams should be provided. Do you know we have pressure sensitive plastic > paper and the rubber boards? The tool is called draftsman tactile board. > This is wonderful to draw images on the spot. Each student should be given > or allowed to carry these kinds of boards to the exam. Then the scribe can > draw the diagram given on the test paper instantly and lead you to feel the > diagram but not explain in his own words. This will avoid the images > problem. Asking alternative questions for diagrams is also kind of an excuse > in my view. I do understand the miss interpretations of terminology. That > is why we are requesting the scribe from the same background. Scribe can > be bit higher level than you but the scribe should not be known to the > student. Another problem is that scribe's slow writing and time constraint. > So I strongly recommend that double time should be given for each exam. To > overcome miss communication or terminology errors, center should arrange > proctor who will oversee the exam. That Procter should be from the concerned > subject. Then if the scribe has any questions. they can refer to the > proctor. Finally, I don't understand officials view. They said providing a > tactile graphics is a security concern but don't they think allowing own > scribe is even worse? Thank you. > Regards, > > ---Original Message----- > From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, > November 18, 2013 10:44 PM > To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com > Cc: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning > the disabled. > Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE > Main guidelines > > Hi Srikanth, > > CBSE provided their own computer during the Board examinations alongwith two > invigilators-they kind of overdid it in my view, but it is okay. > > As far as the problem with the exam centre providing their own scribe goes, > I will quote a personal experience. When I took the National level Science > Talent Search Examination back in 2011, I was given a scribe from class X. > When it came to describing diagrams as no tactile diagrams were provided, he > tried his level best, but was unable to explain most of the diagrams. > Similarly, a question involved working with finding the hybridization of > various carbon atoms. That was perhaps the simplest question on the test, > but I lost points because he could not convey the structure to me. We've got > to agree that some people are good at describing stuff, while the others are > not. It shouldn't be the fault of the candidate if the scribe is not a good > describer, right? > > Also, working together for six hours is not something that easy. My > instructions should be understood by the scribe as quickly as possible, as > any delay is my loss. What if a thing as simple as "read the element a2,2" > may be misinterpreted by the scribe? You don't have time during the test to > explain him how the matrix terminology works. > Or, consider e-z stereo isomers. Sometimes, it becomes important to use > appropriate terminology to convey things, otherwise it might become > difficult to complete the exam within the stipulated time. > > Of course, situation in the United States is pretty different. All the > testing agencies provide you verbal descriptions and tactile graphics, while > also allowing assistive technology, thus eliminating the need of having a > scribe of your own choice. If assistive technology is permited, then for > sure, the choice of bringing in your own scribe is an unreasonable one. > However, until that happens, it is immportant that this choice be available. > > Another pragmatic alternative could be creation of a pool of scribes, so > that if one does not work, the other could be tried. This, again, looks hard > to implement in the near future (authorities manage to get one scribe after > so much difficulty that a pool seems out of question). > > At the same time, I don't understand the reservations in strengthening > invigilation and allowing any scribe. Why not record the entire test session > and review it (as happens at MIT)? Why not seat the scribe and the candidate > in such a way that no communication can go unnoticed (this happened with me > once)? If this cannot be done, either because of callousness on the part of > the invigilator or because of some other reason, then I am sorry to say that > the entire concept of invigilation is flawed. The only thing that I am > stressing is that I wouldn't want a single genuinely talented student to > lose out because of any arbitrary norms or lack of appropriate > accommodations. A test is a platform to showcase your abilities; I wouldn't > want anything to be a hindrance for a blind student. > > Another interesting point worth taking into account: allowing assistive > technology may not be as simple as one may think. IITs submitted that they > were trying to get tactile graphics ready for JEE Advanced 2013 in August > 2012. They continued to maintain the same stand even in April 2013. Finally, > they submitted that it will be hard to implement owing to security > considerations. > > > >> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Dear Karthik, >> I am not here to test the remembering abilities of blind people. >> Even I cannot remember multiple math steps in my mind. For that >> matter, I will trouble my scribe to read again and again when it comes >> to long messy equations. I am sorry. Maybe I was not clear enough. Yes >> you are absolutely right. Scribe can track your intermediary steps and >> read them back to you any number of times but the scribe is not >> supposed to perform calculations on your behalf unless you tell >> specifics. In my view, scribe should not perform simple math >> calculation you quoted as that can be done by a blind person in the >> presence of a tailor frame. I do understand that IIT or other exams >> may not test you long calculations but if they do, there is a reason >> and every student is expected to perform those calculations on own. So >> I am not sure whether I agree with your statement which says that thee >> simple and >> long calculations can be done by the scribe. So I feel organizations >> should work with the examination boards to allow assistive technology >> with high security measures. Then wherever sited students are doing >> scratch work or small calculations, blind person can do them on the >> assistive technology. >> For example you might tell him to write down 1/2*5/7 but you may not >> tell him the final answer so the scribe should be able to ask you >> for the answer and not imply just because he or she worked with you > previously. >> Of course where ever there is opportunity for scratch work, then blind >> students should be given to take tailor frame or computer with imposed >> restrictions. I know we are talking about specifics but lets come >> back to the big picture. I quoted number of problems of having an own >> scribe. So can you please site reasons for requesting own scribe if >> the examination center can provide scribe from the same subject >> background and can facilitate one hour previous interaction before the >> exam? You are a great man Karthik. You are an inspiration for real >> hard working blind people in India. I am amazed by your use of >> computer from the first standard. People like you should strive to >> convince examination boards to allow assistive technology or >> accessible tactile tools so that they can create fare experience for >> blind student. Finally, own scribe is a bad idea according to me. By >> the way, can you please explain how you were able to use computer? For >> example, did you go through any security checks before the exam or did >> they give you the computer? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 4:53 PM >> To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com >> Cc: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >> concerning the disabled. >> Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in >> JEE Main guidelines >> >> Hi Srikanth, >> >> I may point out that the sighted students have the privilege of using >> a scratch paper for Mathematical computations. These exams do not just >> involve an OMR sheet, but provide you a lot of space for rough work >> throughout the test booklet. If sighted are allowed to perform scratch >> work, then there should not be a problem to have blind students do the >> same. Personally, I cannot keep track of a 4×4 matrix, its transpose, >> cofactor matrix and then the inverse in my mind (and so cannot the >> brightest student in my class). I need someone to keep record of these >> for me, especially since I have no tools or assistive technology. When >> a sighted studet is not expected to keep track of these values, then >> why should a blind student be expected to do so? >> Also, your definition of scribe is rather narrow. If you look up the >> definition of scribe (the ETS version which is followed for the >> conduct of the SAT test), you will realize that it permits scratch >> work in the absence of other tools. >> >> Also, realize that there is a difference in rephrasing a question, >> solving a question and keeping track of the intermediate steps. the >> first two are absolutely unacceptable, but the last should be >> absolutely fine. Further, we need to be very clear about the objective >> of the test in question. The IIT-JEE does not seek to measure your >> proficiency at calculations (6th grade exams are good for that); it >> seeks to measure your conceptual ability. >> Having someone calculate >> 4×6.022×10^23/6.626×10^-34×3×10^8 in the absence of taylor frame or >> spreadsheet application is fine in my view. However, the scribe >> plugging in those values without the candidate asking him to do so may >> be construed as unfair. >> >> Of course, the ideal mode will be to have the exam in Braille, E-text >> or audio (fortunately, that's slowly happening; I took my Board exams >> using a computer without a scribe). >> >> Best, >> -- >> -Kartik Sawhney, >> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >> >> >> >> >>> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Dear Karthik, >>> I agree with you in terms of working out math or chemistry questions. >>> But please remember, scribes duty is to verbatim read the question >>> and >> take >>> down the answer as you say but not imply in his own words. He is >>> also >> not >>> supposed to reread the question in simple words or explain you the >>> situation in his or her own words. Do you know? We make mistakes just >>> because we don't understand the way the question is formatted >>> though we know the concept and the correct answer. This happens >>> mainly in the coding. Implications >> can >>> be in many ways. Even if I give him wrong final value but the >>> process is correct, do you suggest that he should fix my final value by > implying? >>> Sited >>> students will calculate the answer and mark on the answer sheet >>> without scratch paper, so why not us in the mind? We can give the >>> scribe final answer. If you tell the scribe to do the problem, he may >>> make math error >> or >>> if you have to calculate that problem, you might make simple math >>> error which might get you wrong answer. Take your example, >>> calculating the inverse of a 3/3 or above, the process is extremely >>> simple but we end up making math errors due to lot of numbers. So >>> this is something scribe cannot do for us. So indirectly, we are >>> asking the scribe to solve a problem for us which is not fare. Since >>> he worked with us before does not mean that he should imply that you >>> know the answer and write. In nervousness and under time constraint, >>> we end up making silly mistakes though we know the >> correct >>> answer. So why scribe should fix those mistakes? When sited students >>> don't have this competitive advantage of working with a person who >>> knows the answers, then why us? If you give me this privilege, I can >>> go and crack >>> IIT-JE or gate or cat, or CA or IAS or ICW or any exam you can think of >>> without any problem. I have people who went through these exams and >>> did >> not >>> clear or cleared. Since they know how to work on these exams, I can >>> maybe hit top rank or at least clear without much of my talent. Do >>> you think this is not possible? We are talking about being fare but >>> how many people will use this opportunity fairly? If people are >>> already using these kind of opportunities well, then why problems of >>> getting job or competing with >> main >>> stream society? I know many people who did not even go to college >>> for >> one >>> days but got 90%. Do you think this is possible? I do however; >>> understand that the visual part is bad for us. for example, when I >>> took SAT, globe detective agency administered the test. They sat with >>> us for the entire duration of the test looking for the similarities >>> of my answers and scribe's pen marks. So at least there should be >>> someone proctoring the exam when >> own >>> scribe is given or it should be videotaped to ensure fare exam. >>> people can find 100 ways to miss use the opportunity. So before we >>> make guidelines, >> we >>> have to consider all possibilities. I just would like to remind that >>> finding the invers of a matrix might be tricky for a blind person but >>> it would be really easy since the sited student can see the numbers. >>> I also propose that the question paper should be given in brail audio >>> or in print. Then the students can choose to opt his or her >>> preference. Then he or she should be able to record answers in to >>> blank audio recorder. This way, he or she >> can >>> walk through the entire process so that the valuators can consider >>> even >> if >>> the final answer is wrong. When we are talking about competitive >>> exams like IIT, CA and CAT, most questions other than maybe few >>> sections are multiple choice. So a student can be given a scribe for >>> scribing the essay or writing part and remaining questions, the >>> student has to answer. As I mentioned above, the definition of the >>> scribe is to read questions >> verbatim >>> as on the test paper. he or she is not supposed to explain. So when >>> test paper is read by an experienced person in to audio tape or >>> record, then that will be equal to a science or subject oriented >>> scribe. If we don't make strict but fare accommodations, then people >>> will continue to miss use. >>> For >>> example, as I mentioned, at MIT, I will not even know who the scribe >>> is till I enter the room. then we have to turn the video recorder on >>> before we begin the exam. we are not supposed to talk each other >>> about test questions. Of course this is bit harsh but I believe this >>> is fare. >> Regards, >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 3:35 PM >>> To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com; AccessIndia: a list for discussing >>> accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. >>> Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes >>> in JEE Main guidelines >>> >>> Hi Srikanth, >>> >>> While I agree with you for most part, I strongly feel that in >>> competitive exams like IIT-JEE and other entrance exams where speed >>> is utmost important, it's important that you've worked with the >>> scribe for quite sometime in advance. consider this: you are not >>> allowed the use of any assistive technology for scratch work, and >>> you're trying to solve a question in linear algebra (say calculating >>> the inverse of a matrix), it'll take a very long time explaining the >>> scribe how the inverse is to be calculated. Instead, you would >>> probably want to walk him through the process real quick, and since >>> he's already worked with you on a similar problem, he can understand >>> what you imply. Or, maybe, consider a question involving optical >>> isomerism in Organic Chemistry, you would probably want the >>> configuration to be described in a particular non-ambiguous way, >>> rather than wasting your time trying to figure out how you want your >>> scribe to explain that to you. To curve >> unfair >>> means, it is invigilation which needs to be strengthened. Isn't that >>> done to curve the use of unfair means for sighted students? Then, why >>> not for us? >>> >>> I'm aware of the situation that you've described, and it is indeed >>> deplorable. However, making such norms that inhibit genuine talent at >>> the cost of trying to ensure a fair exam is not, in my view, the best >>> way to >> go >>> forward. Either we need to allow assistive technology to enable the >>> blind student to take the test independently and just rely on the >>> scribe to bubble the responses, or we need to provide the candidate >>> with a comfortable atmosphere with strong invigilation. BTW, I, too, >>> am totally against segregating blind students for the purposes of >>> taking exams. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>>> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Don't worry. I have your number now >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] On >>>> Behalf Of Kartik Sawhney >>>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 2:34 PM >>>> To: accessindia >>>> Subject: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in >>>> JEE Main guidelines >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> It gives me immense pleasure to share with you that CBSE has amended >>>> its rule for Joint Entrance Examination (main), the entrance >>>> examination for most of the tech schools in the country (also a >>>> qualifying exam for the IITs). Until last year, the Board allowed a >>>> non-Science scribe (from Commerce (without Mathematics) or >>>> Humanities) stream, and that too from class XI (two years junior to >>>> the candidate). this had several issues, most notably that the >>>> scribe will not be familiar with the technical symbols on the test, >>>> and hence will not >>> be able to convey those to the candidate. >>>> >>>> According to the information brochure for JEE Main 2014, there is no >>>> eligibility criteria for a scribe. Moreover, the candidate can opt >>>> to bring his/her own scribe. In case the candidate opts to use a >>>> scribe provided by the centre superintendent of the test centre, the >>>> superintendent needs to ensure that both the scribe and the >>>> candidate meet at least an hour before the examination to get >>>> comfortable with each >>> other. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, nothing has been done to make the diagrams on the >>>> test accessible. Further, JEE Advanced (the entrance exam for IITs), >>>> allows a Science student as a scribe, but from class XI. It also >>>> does not allow the candidate to brin his/her own scribe. Despite all >>>> of this, I feel we are close. I would urge the organisations working >>>> for the blind to take this forward, and help future Science >>>> aspirants get the benefits of the elite education imparted at these > institutes. >>>> >>>> The information brochures for both the exams are located on their >>>> respective websites at http://jeemain.nic.in and >>>> http://jeeadv.iitd.ac.in. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -Kartik Sawhney, >>>> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >>>> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >>>> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >>>> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >>>> >>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_a >>>> cc >>>> essind >>>> ia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Search for old postings at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>> >>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>> changes, please visit the list home page at >>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.o >>>> rg >>>> .in >>>> >>>> >>>> Disclaimer: >>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the >>>> thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates >>>> itself to its veracity; >>>> >>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>> mails sent through this mailing list.. >>>> >>>> >>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_a >>>> cc >>>> essindia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Search for old postings at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>> >>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>> changes, please visit the list home page at >>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.o >>>> rg >>>> .in >>>> >>>> >>>> Disclaimer: >>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the >>>> thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates >>>> itself to its veracity; >>>> >>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the >>>> mails sent through this mailing list.. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Kartik Sawhney, >>> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >>> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >>> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >>> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 > > > -- > -Kartik Sawhney, > Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 > E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); > karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) > Skype: kartik.sawhney22 > > > Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of > mobile phones / Tabs on: > http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in > > > Search for old postings at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to > accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in > with the subject unsubscribe. > > To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, please > visit the list home page at > http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in > > > Disclaimer: > 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the > person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; > > 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails > sent through this mailing list.. Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in Search for old postings at: http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ To unsubscribe send a message to accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in with the subject unsubscribe. To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, please visit the list home page at http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in Disclaimer: 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails sent through this mailing list..
