Hello Srinivasuji, Owe, owe, we did not mean to waste our time. though we are so busy, we spent writing and expressed points to create that awareness. Anyway, thanks so much for your email and I look forward to talking to you sometime. thank you. regards, -----Original Message----- From: li...@srinivasu.org [mailto:li...@srinivasu.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 12:11 AM To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com; AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Cc: Kartik Sawhney; AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in JEE Main guidelines
Guys, You both are certainly wasting time. I'm reading through each and every email on this thread and making my notes. In fact, I am planning to get in touch with authorities in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh to see if we can change the scenario here. Also, Karthik, it's sad that we couldn't follow-up with IIIT before you move to the United States. Srikanth, let's talk sometime. Regards, Srinivasu Chakravarthula | PayPal | @VasuTweets Sent from my iPhone 4S > On 19-Nov-2013, at 9:52, "Srikanth Bolla" <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Karthik, > I am thrilled to get your detailed perspective on this problem. I > hope we both are not the only once writing back and forth and maybe > wasting time on this subject. Nice to know that CBSC gave their own > computer and invigilation. Sorry they did over in your case. Maybe > this might be the first time so it's just due to lack of awareness. > Let me point out your concern "that no talented student should miss > out the opportunity due to lack of accommodations" > I am also 100% with you on this. Personally, I lost so much due to > lack of proper accommodations in science subjects. Even I don't want > any talented student to get hindered by the discriminatory > procedures, however, I strictly don't want any unqualified student to > pass out the exams with the help from scribes. Talented students struggling > are rare but unqualified > and unskilled people getting 100's are seen in high percentage. Of course > people on this list might debate on this point but once own > consciousness will tell the truth. Personally, I know unqualified > people passing out with more than 80%. Don't you think this is bad? I > 100% agree with your point of recording the entire session and allow > own scribe. Then since there will be video and audio, student and the scribe > will have very less chance to cheat. > Recording the session also can bring out valid questions or concerns > from both parties. Then concern authorities can review and make > necessary accommodations in the education curriculum or in the > examination system. I know all this will not happen overnight but > before we ask for own scribe, we have to bring out these points. > Everyone should be aware that bringing own scribe means carrying extra > responsibilities. Some of the specific questions we are talking are > more for science students. But in India for everything people are > requesting own scribes. For example, do you think bank exams or IAS or other > groups or teacher entrance involve any scientific notations? I > don't think so. If I am wrong, people can correct me. If the exam is > mainly literature based, then why do you need your own scribe? Same > with other non-science subjects. For nonscience subjects, you don't > even need scribe from the same background but I can take that easy. > But I completely oppose the idea of own scribe. Getting own scribe is > simply an excuse to pass without working for it. Mainly, assistive > technology should be permitted rather than own scribe. I don't think > explaining about the diagram or the molecular model is the duty of the > scribe. Again, scribe's duty is to read the question as given on the > test paper and record answers and take down scratch work as you say. > So to overcome this problem, tactile diagrams should be provided. Do > you know we have pressure sensitive plastic paper and the rubber boards? The > tool is called draftsman tactile board. > This is wonderful to draw images on the spot. Each student should be > given or allowed to carry these kinds of boards to the exam. Then the > scribe can draw the diagram given on the test paper instantly and lead > you to feel the diagram but not explain in his own words. This will > avoid the images problem. Asking alternative questions for diagrams is > also kind of an excuse in my view. I do understand the miss interpretations > of terminology. That > is why we are requesting the scribe from the same background. Scribe can > be bit higher level than you but the scribe should not be known to the > student. Another problem is that scribe's slow writing and time constraint. > So I strongly recommend that double time should be given for each > exam. To overcome miss communication or terminology errors, center > should arrange proctor who will oversee the exam. That Procter should > be from the concerned subject. Then if the scribe has any questions. > they can refer to the proctor. Finally, I don't understand officials > view. They said providing a tactile graphics is a security concern > but don't they think allowing own scribe is even worse? Thank you. > Regards, > > ---Original Message----- > From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, > November 18, 2013 10:44 PM > To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com > Cc: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues > concerning the disabled. > Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in > JEE Main guidelines > > Hi Srikanth, > > CBSE provided their own computer during the Board examinations > alongwith two invigilators-they kind of overdid it in my view, but it is okay. > > As far as the problem with the exam centre providing their own scribe > goes, I will quote a personal experience. When I took the National > level Science Talent Search Examination back in 2011, I was given a scribe > from class X. > When it came to describing diagrams as no tactile diagrams were > provided, he tried his level best, but was unable to explain most of the > diagrams. > Similarly, a question involved working with finding the hybridization > of various carbon atoms. That was perhaps the simplest question on the > test, but I lost points because he could not convey the structure to > me. We've got to agree that some people are good at describing stuff, > while the others are not. It shouldn't be the fault of the candidate > if the scribe is not a good describer, right? > > Also, working together for six hours is not something that easy. My > instructions should be understood by the scribe as quickly as > possible, as any delay is my loss. What if a thing as simple as "read the > element a2,2" > may be misinterpreted by the scribe? You don't have time during the > test to explain him how the matrix terminology works. > Or, consider e-z stereo isomers. Sometimes, it becomes important to > use appropriate terminology to convey things, otherwise it might > become difficult to complete the exam within the stipulated time. > > Of course, situation in the United States is pretty different. All the > testing agencies provide you verbal descriptions and tactile graphics, > while also allowing assistive technology, thus eliminating the need of > having a scribe of your own choice. If assistive technology is > permited, then for sure, the choice of bringing in your own scribe is an > unreasonable one. > However, until that happens, it is immportant that this choice be available. > > Another pragmatic alternative could be creation of a pool of scribes, > so that if one does not work, the other could be tried. This, again, > looks hard to implement in the near future (authorities manage to get > one scribe after so much difficulty that a pool seems out of question). > > At the same time, I don't understand the reservations in strengthening > invigilation and allowing any scribe. Why not record the entire test > session and review it (as happens at MIT)? Why not seat the scribe and > the candidate in such a way that no communication can go unnoticed > (this happened with me once)? If this cannot be done, either because > of callousness on the part of the invigilator or because of some other > reason, then I am sorry to say that the entire concept of invigilation > is flawed. The only thing that I am stressing is that I wouldn't want > a single genuinely talented student to lose out because of any > arbitrary norms or lack of appropriate accommodations. A test is a > platform to showcase your abilities; I wouldn't want anything to be a > hindrance for a blind student. > > Another interesting point worth taking into account: allowing > assistive technology may not be as simple as one may think. IITs > submitted that they were trying to get tactile graphics ready for JEE > Advanced 2013 in August 2012. They continued to maintain the same > stand even in April 2013. Finally, they submitted that it will be hard > to implement owing to security considerations. > > > >> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Dear Karthik, >> I am not here to test the remembering abilities of blind people. >> Even I cannot remember multiple math steps in my mind. For that >> matter, I will trouble my scribe to read again and again when it >> comes to long messy equations. I am sorry. Maybe I was not clear >> enough. Yes you are absolutely right. Scribe can track your >> intermediary steps and read them back to you any number of times but >> the scribe is not supposed to perform calculations on your behalf >> unless you tell specifics. In my view, scribe should not perform >> simple math calculation you quoted as that can be done by a blind >> person in the presence of a tailor frame. I do understand that IIT >> or other exams may not test you long calculations but if they do, >> there is a reason and every student is expected to perform those >> calculations on own. So I am not sure whether I agree with your >> statement which says that thee simple and >> long calculations can be done by the scribe. So I feel organizations >> should work with the examination boards to allow assistive technology >> with high security measures. Then wherever sited students are doing >> scratch work or small calculations, blind person can do them on the >> assistive technology. >> For example you might tell him to write down 1/2*5/7 but you may not >> tell him the final answer so the scribe should be able to ask you >> for the answer and not imply just because he or she worked with you > previously. >> Of course where ever there is opportunity for scratch work, then >> blind students should be given to take tailor frame or computer with >> imposed restrictions. I know we are talking about specifics but let’s >> come back to the big picture. I quoted number of problems of having >> an own scribe. So can you please site reasons for requesting own >> scribe if the examination center can provide scribe from the same >> subject background and can facilitate one hour previous interaction >> before the exam? You are a great man Karthik. You are an inspiration >> for real hard working blind people in India. I am amazed by your use >> of computer from the first standard. People like you should strive to >> convince examination boards to allow assistive technology or >> accessible tactile tools so that they can create fare experience for >> blind student. Finally, own scribe is a bad idea according to me. By >> the way, can you please explain how you were able to use computer? >> For example, did you go through any security checks before the exam >> or did they give you the computer? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 4:53 PM >> To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com >> Cc: AccessIndia: a list for discussing accessibility and issues >> concerning the disabled. >> Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes >> in JEE Main guidelines >> >> Hi Srikanth, >> >> I may point out that the sighted students have the privilege of using >> a scratch paper for Mathematical computations. These exams do not >> just involve an OMR sheet, but provide you a lot of space for rough >> work throughout the test booklet. If sighted are allowed to perform >> scratch work, then there should not be a problem to have blind >> students do the same. Personally, I cannot keep track of a 4×4 >> matrix, its transpose, cofactor matrix and then the inverse in my >> mind (and so cannot the brightest student in my class). I need >> someone to keep record of these for me, especially since I have no >> tools or assistive technology. When a sighted studet is not expected >> to keep track of these values, then why should a blind student be expected >> to do so? >> Also, your definition of scribe is rather narrow. If you look up the >> definition of scribe (the ETS version which is followed for the >> conduct of the SAT test), you will realize that it permits scratch >> work in the absence of other tools. >> >> Also, realize that there is a difference in rephrasing a question, >> solving a question and keeping track of the intermediate steps. the >> first two are absolutely unacceptable, but the last should be >> absolutely fine. Further, we need to be very clear about the >> objective of the test in question. The IIT-JEE does not seek to >> measure your proficiency at calculations (6th grade exams are good >> for that); it seeks to measure your conceptual ability. >> Having someone calculate >> 4×6.022×10^23/6.626×10^-34×3×10^8 in the absence of taylor frame or >> spreadsheet application is fine in my view. However, the scribe >> plugging in those values without the candidate asking him to do so >> may be construed as unfair. >> >> Of course, the ideal mode will be to have the exam in Braille, E-text >> or audio (fortunately, that's slowly happening; I took my Board exams >> using a computer without a scribe). >> >> Best, >> -- >> -Kartik Sawhney, >> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >> >> >> >> >>> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Dear Karthik, >>> I agree with you in terms of working out math or chemistry questions. >>> But please remember, scribes duty is to verbatim read the question >>> and >> take >>> down the answer as you say but not imply in his own words. He is >>> also >> not >>> supposed to reread the question in simple words or explain you the >>> situation in his or her own words. Do you know? We make mistakes >>> just because we don't understand the way the question is >>> formatted though we know the concept and the correct answer. This >>> happens mainly in the coding. Implications >> can >>> be in many ways. Even if I give him wrong final value but the >>> process is correct, do you suggest that he should fix my final value >>> by > implying? >>> Sited >>> students will calculate the answer and mark on the answer sheet >>> without scratch paper, so why not us in the mind? We can give the >>> scribe final answer. If you tell the scribe to do the problem, he >>> may make math error >> or >>> if you have to calculate that problem, you might make simple math >>> error which might get you wrong answer. Take your example, >>> calculating the inverse of a 3/3 or above, the process is extremely >>> simple but we end up making math errors due to lot of numbers. So >>> this is something scribe cannot do for us. So indirectly, we are >>> asking the scribe to solve a problem for us which is not fare. Since >>> he worked with us before does not mean that he should imply that you >>> know the answer and write. In nervousness and under time constraint, >>> we end up making silly mistakes though we know the >> correct >>> answer. So why scribe should fix those mistakes? When sited students >>> don't have this competitive advantage of working with a person who >>> knows the answers, then why us? If you give me this privilege, I can >>> go and crack >>> IIT-JE or gate or cat, or CA or IAS or ICW or any exam you can think of >>> without any problem. I have people who went through these exams and >>> did >> not >>> clear or cleared. Since they know how to work on these exams, I can >>> maybe hit top rank or at least clear without much of my talent. Do >>> you think this is not possible? We are talking about being fare but >>> how many people will use this opportunity fairly? If people are >>> already using these kind of opportunities well, then why problems of >>> getting job or competing with >> main >>> stream society? I know many people who did not even go to college >>> for >> one >>> days but got 90%. Do you think this is possible? I do however; >>> understand that the visual part is bad for us. for example, when I >>> took SAT, globe detective agency administered the test. They sat >>> with us for the entire duration of the test looking for the >>> similarities of my answers and scribe's pen marks. So at least there >>> should be someone proctoring the exam when >> own >>> scribe is given or it should be videotaped to ensure fare exam. >>> people can find 100 ways to miss use the opportunity. So before we >>> make guidelines, >> we >>> have to consider all possibilities. I just would like to remind that >>> finding the invers of a matrix might be tricky for a blind person >>> but it would be really easy since the sited student can see the numbers. >>> I also propose that the question paper should be given in brail >>> audio or in print. Then the students can choose to opt his or her >>> preference. Then he or she should be able to record answers in to >>> blank audio recorder. This way, he or she >> can >>> walk through the entire process so that the valuators can consider >>> even >> if >>> the final answer is wrong. When we are talking about competitive >>> exams like IIT, CA and CAT, most questions other than maybe few >>> sections are multiple choice. So a student can be given a scribe >>> for scribing the essay or writing part and remaining questions, the >>> student has to answer. As I mentioned above, the definition of the >>> scribe is to read questions >> verbatim >>> as on the test paper. he or she is not supposed to explain. So when >>> test paper is read by an experienced person in to audio tape or >>> record, then that will be equal to a science or subject oriented >>> scribe. If we don't make strict but fare accommodations, then people >>> will continue to miss use. >>> For >>> example, as I mentioned, at MIT, I will not even know who the >>> scribe is till I enter the room. then we have to turn the video >>> recorder on before we begin the exam. we are not supposed to talk >>> each other about test questions. Of course this is bit harsh but I >>> believe this is fare. >> Regards, >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kartik Sawhney [mailto:sawhney.kar...@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 3:35 PM >>> To: presidentsrika...@gmail.com; AccessIndia: a list for discussing >>> accessibility and issues concerning the disabled. >>> Subject: Re: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes >>> in JEE Main guidelines >>> >>> Hi Srikanth, >>> >>> While I agree with you for most part, I strongly feel that in >>> competitive exams like IIT-JEE and other entrance exams where speed >>> is utmost important, it's important that you've worked with the >>> scribe for quite sometime in advance. consider this: you are not >>> allowed the use of any assistive technology for scratch work, and >>> you're trying to solve a question in linear algebra (say calculating >>> the inverse of a matrix), it'll take a very long time explaining the >>> scribe how the inverse is to be calculated. Instead, you would >>> probably want to walk him through the process real quick, and since >>> he's already worked with you on a similar problem, he can understand >>> what you imply. Or, maybe, consider a question involving optical >>> isomerism in Organic Chemistry, you would probably want the >>> configuration to be described in a particular non-ambiguous way, >>> rather than wasting your time trying to figure out how you want your >>> scribe to explain that to you. To curve >> unfair >>> means, it is invigilation which needs to be strengthened. Isn't that >>> done to curve the use of unfair means for sighted students? Then, >>> why not for us? >>> >>> I'm aware of the situation that you've described, and it is indeed >>> deplorable. However, making such norms that inhibit genuine talent >>> at the cost of trying to ensure a fair exam is not, in my view, the >>> best way to >> go >>> forward. Either we need to allow assistive technology to enable the >>> blind student to take the test independently and just rely on the >>> scribe to bubble the responses, or we need to provide the candidate >>> with a comfortable atmosphere with strong invigilation. BTW, I, too, >>> am totally against segregating blind students for the purposes of >>> taking exams. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>>> On 11/18/13, Srikanth Bolla <presidentsrika...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Don't worry. I have your number now >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: AccessIndia [mailto:accessindia-boun...@accessindia.org.in] >>>> On Behalf Of Kartik Sawhney >>>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 2:34 PM >>>> To: accessindia >>>> Subject: [AI] Good news for blind engineering aspirants-changes in >>>> JEE Main guidelines >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> It gives me immense pleasure to share with you that CBSE has >>>> amended its rule for Joint Entrance Examination (main), the >>>> entrance examination for most of the tech schools in the country >>>> (also a qualifying exam for the IITs). Until last year, the Board >>>> allowed a non-Science scribe (from Commerce (without Mathematics) >>>> or >>>> Humanities) stream, and that too from class XI (two years junior to >>>> the candidate). this had several issues, most notably that the >>>> scribe will not be familiar with the technical symbols on the test, >>>> and hence will not >>> be able to convey those to the candidate. >>>> >>>> According to the information brochure for JEE Main 2014, there is >>>> no eligibility criteria for a scribe. Moreover, the candidate can >>>> opt to bring his/her own scribe. In case the candidate opts to use >>>> a scribe provided by the centre superintendent of the test centre, >>>> the superintendent needs to ensure that both the scribe and the >>>> candidate meet at least an hour before the examination to get >>>> comfortable with each >>> other. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, nothing has been done to make the diagrams on the >>>> test accessible. Further, JEE Advanced (the entrance exam for >>>> IITs), allows a Science student as a scribe, but from class XI. It >>>> also does not allow the candidate to brin his/her own scribe. >>>> Despite all of this, I feel we are close. I would urge the >>>> organisations working for the blind to take this forward, and help >>>> future Science aspirants get the benefits of the elite education >>>> imparted at these > institutes. >>>> >>>> The information brochures for both the exams are located on their >>>> respective websites at http://jeemain.nic.in and >>>> http://jeeadv.iitd.ac.in. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -Kartik Sawhney, >>>> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >>>> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >>>> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >>>> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 >>>> >>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_ >>>> a >>>> cc >>>> essind >>>> ia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Search for old postings at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>> >>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>> changes, please visit the list home page at >>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia. >>>> o >>>> rg >>>> .in >>>> >>>> >>>> Disclaimer: >>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the >>>> thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates >>>> itself to its veracity; >>>> >>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on >>>> the mails sent through this mailing list.. >>>> >>>> >>>> Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing >>>> accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: >>>> http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_ >>>> a >>>> cc >>>> essindia.org.in >>>> >>>> >>>> Search for old postings at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send a message to >>>> accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in >>>> with the subject unsubscribe. >>>> >>>> To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other >>>> changes, please visit the list home page at >>>> http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia. >>>> o >>>> rg >>>> .in >>>> >>>> >>>> Disclaimer: >>>> 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the >>>> thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates >>>> itself to its veracity; >>>> >>>> 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on >>>> the mails sent through this mailing list.. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Kartik Sawhney, >>> Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 >>> E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); >>> karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) >>> Skype: kartik.sawhney22 > > > -- > -Kartik Sawhney, > Cell: +1-(650) 492-3220 > E-mail ID: sawhney.kar...@gmail.com (all personal E-mails); > karti...@stanford.edu (all academic E-mails) > Skype: kartik.sawhney22 > > > Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of > mobile phones / Tabs on: > http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_acc > essindia.org.in > > > Search for old postings at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to > accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in > with the subject unsubscribe. > > To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, > please visit the list home page at > http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org > .in > > > Disclaimer: > 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking > of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its > veracity; > > 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails > sent through this mailing list.. Register at the dedicated AccessIndia list for discussing accessibility of mobile phones / Tabs on: http://mail.accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/mobile.accessindia_accessindia.org.in Search for old postings at: http://www.mail-archive.com/accessindia@accessindia.org.in/ To unsubscribe send a message to accessindia-requ...@accessindia.org.in with the subject unsubscribe. To change your subscription to digest mode or make any other changes, please visit the list home page at http://accessindia.org.in/mailman/listinfo/accessindia_accessindia.org.in Disclaimer: 1. Contents of the mails, factual, or otherwise, reflect the thinking of the person sending the mail and AI in no way relates itself to its veracity; 2. AI cannot be held liable for any commission/omission based on the mails sent through this mailing list..
