>From liberal hippie me...
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:38 PM Bill Prince <part15...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They don't even need to sneeze. They shed virus just by breathing. And the
> point that many (most) anti-vaxxers seem to gloss over is that it's not
> just about them, it's about all the innocant people they can give it to
> while they're infectious.
>
> This is an off topic topic.
>
>
> bp
> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
>
> On 7/23/2021 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying
> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. People have been
> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t
> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’
> of another person.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron <david.coud...@advantenon.com>
> <david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles
> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications. Each decision
> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being
> treated. To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them
> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical
> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding
> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a
> medical treatment against their will. You may feel that we should force
> them to take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would feel
> the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of
> the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for
> the greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that line is,
> only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to
> take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that
> decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see
> things differently than some other folks. So be it.
>
>
>
> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to
> act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race. Seems
> like a disconnect there.
>
>
>
> If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to
> others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.
> We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt
> that very many of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the
> sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get to a body
> mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t
> need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of
> dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke
> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the
> facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those
> likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make
> big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death.
>
>
>
> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things.
> While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the
> best choice for their situation. I also respect the right of someone who
> is not in the best physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a
> drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals
> to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough
> not to drink and drive when they have had too much.
>
>
>
> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we
> never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that certain
> personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that
> might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding
> this situation.
>
>
>
> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep
> perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape
> if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe the vaccine
> will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry about.
>
>
>
> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is
> with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but
> we’ll never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated,
> but because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu
> virus. Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we
> absolutely should as it will save lives. But as Carl pointed out below,
> vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊
>
>
>
> I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic
> several years ago. Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the
> other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS
> anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it.
> No one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years.
> That is my bet.
>
>
>
> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only original
> point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated.
> We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right
> to chose.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf
> Of * Carl Peterson
> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> <af@af.afmug.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, you
> need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1.
> We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even
> if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something
> since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is
> walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time.
>
>
>
> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if
> someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country
> there isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever isn't doing much
> these days. The issue here really is about what is best for society vs
> what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's personal
> risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if
> they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for
> externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince
> them to get vaccinated.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess <dmburg...@linktechs.net>
> wrote:
>
> Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a
> NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? This is a free society,
> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.
>
>
>
>
>
> *<image001.png>*
>
> *Dennis Burgess*
>
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>
> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>
> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more like a
> whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons
> are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit
> difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in
> public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the
> potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed
> persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone
> around them and to the public at large.
>
> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I
> have stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the
> Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>
>
>
> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not
> OK to say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so
> unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that
> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane
> anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure. Just like we
> do the FDA approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell
> drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother
> putting you through the approval process” We don’t do that for good
> reason.
>
>
>
> I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping
> the situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits
> of the situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the
> intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.
>
>
>
> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks
> publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA
> approved?
>
>
>
> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should
> have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with
> the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t
> comfortable with an experimental vaccine.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf
> Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
>
> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks
> who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.
>
>
>
> 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
> FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork
> clearly stated several facts. Among them are:
>
>
> 1. This is not FDA approved.
>
> It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time,
> but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty
> well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for
> FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go
> through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up
> at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to
> get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea.
>
>
> 1.
> 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While
> we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this
> “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
>
> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split
> hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it
> clearly prevents them from dying.
>
>
> 1.
>
>
> 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
> isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
>
> I've never heard such an argument.
>
>
> 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every
> medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of
> medicines have such negligible side effects, that they are considered
> completely safe. The FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand
> the potential of serious side effects and drug interaction issues. If you
> are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this experimental
> drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill
> or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk
> of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of
> using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people relied upon a
> conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and
> use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame
> people into using experimental drugs.
>
>
>
>
> 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of
> drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.
>
> It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.
>
>
>
> 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not
> all. We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for example,
> you were under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be
> very fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood
> if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control
> medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the
> virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from seizure. As
> far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet.
>
>
>
>
> 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have
> decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?
>
> I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with that behavior
> either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out there accusing
> people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.
>
>
>
>
>
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