This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an individual to
discuss and evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their
family and then make their own decision. The individual’s
determination of necessity for a medical treatment may vary from
person to person. Their perception of risk of treatment versus
reward of not getting sick is not the same for every instance. Most
people are pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
their situation. Are we now saying that the individual can no longer
make this determination? That people are not smart enough to make
the decision in their best interest? That someone on an email list
knows better than each individual whether or not that individual
should be taking any medical treatment including a vaccination? I
hope we are not moving into an era in the country where people decide
for others whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine. If we
are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory
medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope. I believe in
the good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they
have enough facts. I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually
have enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they
believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not
vaccinated. The only people at risk are those who have decided not
to be vaccinated and they have accepted that risk.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of * Robert
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
David,
Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a
valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I don't imagine it's
anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are
not below the current age limit. I would WAG that it's probably a
lot less than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to
effective herd immunity.
Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for.
On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS
spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.
People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why
not COVID? If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full
body condom if you come within 100’ of another person.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
<david.coud...@advantenon.com>
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the
shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other
medications. Each decision should be based on risk/reward of
that drug and the medical condition being treated. To think
that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they do
doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call
them selfish for making a decision they believe is in their
best medical interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there
are people are deciding not to take it simply because they
think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment
against their will. You may feel that we should force them to
take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would
feel the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb
overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there is a line
somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good. I am
not attempting to determine where that line is, only
suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not
deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly
shamed for making that decision. It doesn’t seem that far
fetched, but I am learning I see things differently than some
other folks. So be it.
I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we
still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to
save the human race. Seems like a disconnect there.
If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing
harm to others, we would avoid all other activities that
create risk for others. We’d never drive a car, much less have
a beer and get in a car. I doubt that very many of us on
this list can say that. We would never allow the sale of
fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get to a
body mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is
risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being alive
carries with it the risk of dying. We are all much more
likely to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or
cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the facts. Many
folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those
likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on
decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility of
those causes of death.
I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these
things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right
of folks to make the best choice for their situation. I also
respect the right of someone who is not in the best physical
condition to eat a steak. I realize that a drunk driver
might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals
to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are
responsible enough not to drink and drive when they have had
too much.
Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our
country if we never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we
understand that certain personal freedoms are worth the
possibility of catching a disease that might kill us. I have
a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this
situation.
Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to
keep perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so
bent out of shape if they are already vaccinated. I guess
they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it does,
there is nothing to worry about.
I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses,
that it is with us permanently. We will have yearly updates
to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of it. Not
because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because it will
always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus.
Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines,
we absolutely should as it will save lives. But as Carl
pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊
I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS
epidemic several years ago. Did we force people to stop having
sex or many of the other high risk things that led to AIDS?
Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore? 32 million people
died of AIDS and people still die from it. No one talks
about it any more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years.
That is my bet.
Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My
only original point was that there are valid reasons folks
chose not to get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know what
they are, but should respect their right to chose.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy
perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in order
to get R0 to be less than 1. We know that a good percentage
of people will follow a mask mandate. Even if most of that
group is vaccinated that lever will still do something since
no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that
population is walking around as symptom-free carriers at any
given time.
Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower
R0, but if someone is too self centered to care about their
neighbors or their country there isn't much you can do to make
them care. That lever isn't doing much these days. The issue
here really is about what is best for society vs what an
individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's
personal risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty
low so if they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and
don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting other
people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
<dmburg...@linktechs.net <mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>> wrote:
Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to
get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in
timeout? This is a free society, if you are so scared,
you stay home. I will take my chances.
*<image001.png>*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>
Need MikroTik Cloud Management:
https://cloud.linktechs.net <https://cloud.linktechs.net>
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This
is more like a whining child having an open temper-tantrum
in public. Un-vaxxed persons are a health hazard and
attempting to explain this to a child is a bit difficult.
Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in
public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with
Covid there is the potential for a new variant even worse
than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed persons should be
quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone
around them and to the public at large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I
don’t believe I have stated anything that varies from
the facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I
received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate,
however, why is not OK to say that I want to wait for
the approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We
don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood
that those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up
to get on the plane anyway. We still check each and
every person to make sure. Just like we do the FDA
approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could
just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d
pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the
approval process” We don’t do that for good reason.
I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither
approach are helping the situation. It should be a
discussion based upon the scientific merits of the
situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at
the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their
decision.
There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder
how many folks publicly shaming others for not taking
the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?
Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I
suggesting it should have. But I don’t think that
those of us that decided to go ahead with the
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those
who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Adam
Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with
most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging about
suggesting that folks who have chosen not to take
the vaccine are not that smart.
1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact
that this is not an FDA approved
medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several
facts. Among them are:
1. This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval
takes a long time, but around 90% of the submissions
end up approved because they are pretty well tested by
the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying
for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea
whether it's going to go through or not. Presumably
people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the
airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people
don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the
drug test. Same idea.
1.
2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to
prevent the virus. While we likely all
agree that there is a very good likelihood
that this “vaccine” will help prevent it,
it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are
un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say maybe it
didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it
clearly prevents them from dying.
1.
1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to
think this vaccine isn’t safe since people
aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.
1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment. Every medicine you take has some
level of side effect. The vast majority of
medicines have such negligible side effects,
that they are considered completely safe.
The FDA approval process exists to ensure we
understand the potential of serious side
effects and drug interaction issues. If you
are 30 years old and folks are saying you have
to take this experimental drug to prevent this
incredibly small chance of you becoming
seriously ill or dying, it seems like an
intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the
risk of getting seriously ill or dying from
this disease outweighs the risk of using an
experimental drug”. It used to be that people
relied upon a conversation with their doctor
to determine personal risk of disease and use
of a drug. Apparently we no longer do
that. We publicly shame people into using
experimental drugs.
1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a
full understanding of drug interactions with
other medicines folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this
year.
1. We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all. We have
FDA approval processes for good reason. If
for example, you were under 40 and were taking
seizure control medication, it would be very
fair to hold off on an experimental drug until
it is fully understood if the vaccine might
lessen the effectiveness of the seizure
control medication. An incredibly low risk
of serious illness or death from the virus
could turn into a good chance of serious
injury from seizure. As far as I know data
like that is certainly not available yet.
1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to
belittle those that have decided not to get
vaccinated by an experimental drug?
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable
with that behavior either. It goes both ways though.
Plenty of memes out there accusing people of being
dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.
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