Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and
other ones..
I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all.
Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit
what you believe...
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account)
<li...@packetflux.com <mailto:li...@packetflux.com>> wrote:
I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up
further, but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in...
One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places
where people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other.
Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from
infection is if other people behaved like they might be a
carrier. That is, limit social interaction, stay away from other
people if possible, wear masks, practice good hygiene. Some
people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want to be
infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. Both
sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not
to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right
of being able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up
infected. At this point, the government needed to step in and
make a decision about who's rights were going to be protected, and
because of the nature of COVID, most places ended up choosing the
rights of people not to be infected.
Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to
protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having
long-term effects from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if
not less). As a result, now that anyone who wants a shot can get
one, I really could care less whether someone else wears a mask or
gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules should
reflect that, which most of them do at this point.
There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're
going to have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the
unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital
ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask mandates and
similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kick
unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and let them
die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path
that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take
the risk of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you
need it.
There is also the concern about variants being generated by the
virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the population.
I'm going to ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy
as then you have to start asking difficult questions about what
the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a
population to either be vaccinated or continue quarantine+mask
wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence,
either way, to make a decision here.
The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need
people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on
actual facts. Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories
from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't magnetic. The
vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have
a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself. No,
the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective.
No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you survive
COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having
long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the
vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on.
Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around
the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally
respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get
the vaccine. I can understand how two people who look at the
facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the
real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine. But the
whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to
people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed
to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions
based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that
don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation
where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors
and suppositions.
And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive
lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that
the left has their fair share as well. Which side has made up
more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues
largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue
appear larger than it is.
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
<david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical
reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an
individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with
their doctor and their family and then make their own
decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a
medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their
perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting
sick is not the same for every instance. Most people are
pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of
their situation. Are we now saying that the individual can
no longer make this determination? That people are not smart
enough to make the decision in their best interest? That
someone on an email list knows better than each individual
whether or not that individual should be taking any medical
treatment including a vaccination? I hope we are not moving
into an era in the country where people decide for others
whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
especially when we are talking about an experimental
vaccine. If we are suggesting that the group can now make
decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty
slippery slope. I believe in the good of people and their
ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts.
I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough
data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated
and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned
that others are not vaccinated. The only people at risk are
those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have
accepted that risk.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
David,
Do you have any research of the percentage of people who
"have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I
don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population
the is refusing that are not below the current age limit. I
would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number
not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity.
Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution
for.
On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with
AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids
by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for infecting
others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the
vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come
within 100’ of another person.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
<david.coud...@advantenon.com>
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
There are valid reasons for deciding to take this
vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a
myriad of other medications. Each decision should be
based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical
condition being treated. To think that you know
everyone’s medical situation better than they do
doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.
To call them selfish for making a decision they
believe is in their best medical interest seems overly
judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to
take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be
forced to take a medical treatment against their
will. You may feel that we should force them to take
the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would
feel the same about mandatory castration of young men
to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there
is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the
greater good. I am not attempting to determine where
that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid
medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine
and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that
decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am
learning I see things differently than some other
folks. So be it.
I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated,
but we still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work
in order to save the human race. Seems like a
disconnect there.
If we were really so worried about infecting others or
causing harm to others, we would avoid all other
activities that create risk for others. We’d never
drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.
I doubt that very many of us on this list can say
that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods.
We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass
within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is
risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being
alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all
much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke
related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid.
Those are just the facts. Many folks make small
adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes
of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to
make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those
causes of death.
I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear
of these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I
respect the right of folks to make the best choice for
their situation. I also respect the right of someone
who is not in the best physical condition to eat a
steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me
some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go
to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are
responsible enough not to drink and drive when they
have had too much.
Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to
our country if we never allowed anyone in or out of
it. But we understand that certain personal freedoms
are worth the possibility of catching a disease that
might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass
hypochondria surrounding this situation.
Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just
trying to keep perspective. I just don’t
understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they
are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe
the vaccine will work because if it does, there is
nothing to worry about.
I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like
viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will
have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll
never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t
getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate
ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus.
Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on
vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save
lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines
aren’t 100% effective……. 😊
I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a
AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we force people
to stop having sex or many of the other high risk
things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about
AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and
people still die from it. No one talks about it any
more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That
is my bet.
Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am
sure. My only original point was that there are
valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. We
can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should
respect their right to chose.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Carl
Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
<af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public
policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers
that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We
know that a good percentage of people will follow a
mask mandate. Even if most of that group is
vaccinated that lever will still do something since no
vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that
population is walking around as symptom-free carriers
at any given time.
Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way
to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to
care about their neighbors or their country there
isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever
isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is
about what is best for society vs what an individual
thinks is best for themselves. An individual's
personal risk of having serious Covid complications is
pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to
the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g.
them infecting other people, then it's hard to
convince them to get vaccinated.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
<dmburg...@linktechs.net
<mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>> wrote:
Why does someone who has made an informed choice
not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have
not sit out in timeout? This is a free society,
if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take
my chances.
*<image001.png>*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support
Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website:
http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with
www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com>
Need MikroTik Cloud Management:
https://cloud.linktechs.net
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of
*Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
There is no having a sane discussion on this
topic. This is more like a whining child having
an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed
persons are a health hazard and attempting to
explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those
who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in
public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick
with Covid there is the potential for a new
variant even worse than the Delta variant.
Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they
are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to
the public at large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions.
However, I don’t believe I have stated
anything that varies from the facts. I can
send you the Moderna sheet I received with my
vaccine if you want to see that.
Your points about FDA approval are probably
accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I
want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t
seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on
the plane based on the likelihood that those
on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to
get on the plane anyway. We still check each
and every person to make sure. Just like we
do the FDA approval process to make sure.
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies
“if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we
won’t bother putting you through the approval
process” We don’t do that for good reason.
I agree with you on the memes both ways.
Neither approach are helping the situation.
It should be a discussion based upon the
scientific merits of the situation.
Unfortunately both side love to poke at the
intelligence of those that don’t agree with
their decision.
There is no way to know this for sure, but I
wonder how many folks publicly shaming others
for not taking the vaccine know that it is not
FDA approved?
Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions,
nor am I suggesting it should have. But I
don’t think that those of us that decided to
go ahead with the vaccination get to make
medical decisions for those who aren’t
comfortable with an experimental vaccine.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of
*Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't
agree with most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly
challenging about suggesting that folks
who have chosen not to take the vaccine
are not that smart.
1. Folks who do that never talk about
that fact that this is not an FDA
approved medicine/vaccine. I took
the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork
clearly stated several facts. Among
them are:
1. This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization. FDA
approval takes a long time, but around 90% of
the submissions end up approved because they
are pretty well tested by the manufacturer
before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA
approval already has a pretty good idea
whether it's going to go through or not.
Presumably people on a no-fly list don't
routinely show up at the airport expecting to
board a plane. Presumably people don't try to
get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug
test. Same idea.
1.
2. This “vaccine” has not been proven
to prevent the virus. While we
likely all agree that there is a
very good likelihood that this
“vaccine” will help prevent it, it
is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are
un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say
maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming
infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.
1.
1. The argument is, “there should be no
reason to think this vaccine isn’t
safe since people aren’t dying from
taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.
1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of
medical treatment. Every medicine you
take has some level of side effect.
The vast majority of medicines have
such negligible side effects, that
they are considered completely safe.
The FDA approval process exists to
ensure we understand the potential of
serious side effects and drug
interaction issues. If you are 30
years old and folks are saying you
have to take this experimental drug to
prevent this incredibly small chance
of you becoming seriously ill or
dying, it seems like an intelligent
thing to say “I am not sure the risk
of getting seriously ill or dying from
this disease outweighs the risk of
using an experimental drug”. It used
to be that people relied upon a
conversation with their doctor to
determine personal risk of disease and
use of a drug. Apparently we no longer
do that. We publicly shame people
into using experimental drugs.
1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t
have a full understanding of drug
interactions with other medicines
folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just
invented this year.
1. We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all.
We have FDA approval processes for
good reason. If for example, you
were under 40 and were taking seizure
control medication, it would be very
fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if
the vaccine might lessen the
effectiveness of the seizure control
medication. An incredibly low risk
of serious illness or death from the
virus could turn into a good chance of
serious injury from seizure. As far
as I know data like that is certainly
not available yet.
1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need
to belittle those that have decided
not to get vaccinated by an
experimental drug?
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not
comfortable with that behavior either. It
goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out
there accusing people of being dumb sheep for
taking the vaccine.
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