No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time.
Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country there isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is about what is best for society vs what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's personal risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated. On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess <dmburg...@linktechs.net> wrote: > Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a > NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, > if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances. > > > > > > *[image: LTI-Full_175px]* > > *Dennis Burgess* > > > Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” > > *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services > > *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net > > Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com > > Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of * Jan-GAMs > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more like a > whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons > are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit > difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in > public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the > potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed > persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone > around them and to the public at large. > > On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: > > I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I > have stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the > Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that. > > > > Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not > OK to say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so > unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that > those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane > anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure. Just like we > do the FDA approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell > drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother > putting you through the approval process” We don’t do that for good > reason. > > > > I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping > the situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits > of the situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the > intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision. > > > > There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks > publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA > approved? > > > > Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should > have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with > the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t > comfortable with an experimental vaccine. > > > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf > Of *Adam Moffett > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. > > On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: > > Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks > who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. > > > > 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an > FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork > clearly stated several facts. Among them are: > > > 1. This is not FDA approved. > > It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, > but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty > well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for > FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go > through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up > at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to > get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. > > > > 1. > 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While > we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this > “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. > > 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split > hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it > clearly prevents them from dying. > > > > 1. > > > 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine > isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. > > I've never heard such an argument. > > > > 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every > medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of > medicines have such negligible side effects, that they are considered > completely safe. The FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand > the potential of serious side effects and drug interaction issues. If you > are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this experimental > drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill > or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk > of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of > using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people relied upon a > conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and > use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame > people into using experimental drugs. > > > > > > 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of > drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take. > > It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year. > > > > > 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not > all. We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for example, > you were under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be > very fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood > if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control > medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the > virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from seizure. As > far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet. > > > > > > 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have > decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? > > I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with that behavior > either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out there accusing > people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine. > > > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > --
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