On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
<david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote:
There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the
shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other
medications. Each decision should be based on risk/reward of that
drug and the medical condition being treated. To think that you
know everyone’s medical situation better than they do doesn’t seem
very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them selfish for
making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest
seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not
to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take
a medical treatment against their will. You may feel that we should
force them to take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you
would feel the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb
overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere
about forced treatment for the greater good. I am not attempting to
determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid
medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they
shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that decision. It doesn’t
seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see things differently
than some other folks. So be it.
I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have
to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human
race. Seems like a disconnect there.
If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm
to others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for
others. We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a
car. I doubt that very many of us on this list can say that. We
would never allow the sale of fatty foods. We would force each and
everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted range. Keep in
mind life is risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being
alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all much more
likely to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer
than we are of Covid. Those are just the facts. Many folks make
small adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes of
mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make big changes
to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death.
I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these
things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of
folks to make the best choice for their situation. I also respect
the right of someone who is not in the best physical condition to eat
a steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me some day, but
I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that
most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive when
they have had too much.
Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if
we never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that
certain personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a
disease that might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass
hypochondria surrounding this situation.
Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep
perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of
shape if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe
the vaccine will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry
about.
I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that
it is with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the
vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of it. Not because people
aren’t getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate ahead of
the vaccine, just like the flu virus. Please don’t take this as an
argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will
save lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100%
effective……. 😊
I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic
several years ago. Did we force people to stop having sex or many
of the other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even
talk about AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and people
still die from it. No one talks about it any more. Covid will be
the same way in 10 years. That is my bet.
Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only
original point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to
get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but
should respect their right to chose.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of * Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective,
you need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be
less than 1. We know that a good percentage of people will follow a
mask mandate. Even if most of that group is vaccinated that lever
will still do something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some
number of that population is walking around as symptom-free carriers
at any given time.
Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but
if someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or
their country there isn't much you can do to make them care. That
lever isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is about
what is best for society vs what an individual thinks is best for
themselves. An individual's personal risk of having serious Covid
complications is pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to
the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting
other people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
<dmburg...@linktechs.net <mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>> wrote:
Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get
vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout?
This is a free society, if you are so scared, you stay home. I
will take my chances.
**
*<image001.png>*
*Dennis Burgess*
*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net
<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
<https://cloud.linktechs.net>
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more
like a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.
Un-vaxxed persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain
this to a child is a bit difficult. Those who don't have a
vaccine should not be allowed in public. Every time a non-vaxxed
person gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new
variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed persons
should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone
around them and to the public at large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t
believe I have stated anything that varies from the facts.
I can send you the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine
if you want to see that.
Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate,
however, why is not OK to say that I want to wait for the
approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We don’t let
folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the
no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane
anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure.
Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure.
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are
pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you
through the approval process” We don’t do that for good reason.
I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are
helping the situation. It should be a discussion based upon
the scientific merits of the situation. Unfortunately both
side love to poke at the intelligence of those that don’t
agree with their decision.
There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many
folks publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know
that it is not FDA approved?
Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I
suggesting it should have. But I don’t think that those of
us that decided to go ahead with the vaccination get to make
medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with an
experimental vaccine.
*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most
of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging about
suggesting that folks who have chosen not to take the
vaccine are not that smart.
1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that
this is not an FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I
took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly
stated several facts. Among them are:
1. This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a
long time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved
because they are pretty well tested by the manufacturer
before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA approval already
has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or
not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show
up at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably
people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the
drug test. Same idea.
2.
3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the
virus. While we likely all agree that there is
a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We
can split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from
becoming infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.
4.
2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think
this vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying
from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.
3. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment. Every medicine you take has some level
of side effect. The vast majority of medicines have
such negligible side effects, that they are
considered completely safe. The FDA approval
process exists to ensure we understand the potential
of serious side effects and drug interaction
issues. If you are 30 years old and folks are
saying you have to take this experimental drug to
prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming
seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent
thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting
seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs
the risk of using an experimental drug”. It used to
be that people relied upon a conversation with their
doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use
of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We
publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.
4. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full
understanding of drug interactions with other
medicines folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.
5. We likely understand the very common medicines, but,
certainly not all. We have FDA approval processes
for good reason. If for example, you were under 40
and were taking seizure control medication, it would
be very fair to hold off on an experimental drug
until it is fully understood if the vaccine might
lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control
medication. An incredibly low risk of serious
illness or death from the virus could turn into a
good chance of serious injury from seizure. As far
as I know data like that is certainly not available yet.
6. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle
those that have decided not to get vaccinated by an
experimental drug?
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with
that behavior either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of
memes out there accusing people of being dumb sheep for
taking the vaccine.
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