Assuming the vaccine is 90% effective, your neighbor
(vaccinated) has a 9 in 10 chance of not getting it.
Unvaccinated, your neighbor will get it (per your scenario) and
now has the ability to infect others. A good analogy is
critical-mass in a nuclear reactor; the vaccine represents the
control rods and the infected represent the decaying isotope.
Drop the control rods and the reaction stops - pull them out
and the reaction goes super-critical.
I wish I could tie this to Dr. Strangelove, but it is late and
I am tired.
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:27 PM Steve Jones
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>
wrote:
I laugh at the whole "get vaccinated so you dont give it to
your neighbor" coming from the vaccinated who are spreading
it to their neighbors.
Good lulz.
Anybody wanna charter a flight from texas to dc?
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 8:01 PM Chuck McCown via AF
<af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
Run Forrest
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Jay Weekley
<par...@cyberbroadband.net
<mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net>> wrote:
>
> Yay Alabama.
>
> Jaime Solorza wrote:
>> Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to
do...like polio and other ones..
>> I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all.
>> Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus
doesn't give a shit what you believe...
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian
(List Account) <li...@packetflux.com
<mailto:li...@packetflux.com>
<mailto:li...@packetflux.com
<mailto:li...@packetflux.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid
stirring this up
>> further, but, it's probably time for me to stick
my $0.02 in...
>>
>> One primary role of government is to make rules
or laws in places
>> where people's rights (or opinions) come in
conflict with each other.
>>
>> Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be
protected from
>> infection is if other people behaved like they
might be a
>> carrier. That is, limit social interaction,
stay away from other
>> people if possible, wear masks, practice good
hygiene. Some
>> people didn't want to do this. Other people
didn't want to be
>> infected, but couldn't protect themselves
effectively. Both
>> sides had rights - the right to do what one wants
vs the right not
>> to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add
to that the right
>> of being able to have an ICU bed available if you
did end up
>> infected. At this point, the government needed
to step in and
>> make a decision about who's rights were going to
be protected, and
>> because of the nature of COVID, most places ended
up choosing the
>> rights of people not to be infected.
>>
>> Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I
have a way to
>> protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of
dying or having
>> long-term effects from COVID is more like dying
from the flu (if
>> not less). As a result, now that anyone who
wants a shot can get
>> one, I really could care less whether someone
else wears a mask or
>> gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government
rules should
>> reflect that, which most of them do at this point.
>>
>> There is one main caveat, and that is that in
some areas we're
>> going to have a resurgence of COVID among
(mostly) the
>> unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to
fill the hospital
>> ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask
mandates and
>> similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing
to kick
>> unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they
fill, and let them
>> die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if
you chose a path
>> that results in a higher risk of dying, then you
should also take
>> the risk of there not being an ICU bed available
to you if you
>> need it.
>>
>> There is also the concern about variants being
generated by the
>> virus continuing to run rampant among parts of
the population. I'm going to ignore this as this
makes my point a bit more messy
>> as then you have to start asking difficult
questions about what
>> the actual risk of this is versus the downside of
forcing a
>> population to either be vaccinated or continue
quarantine+mask
>> wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong
enough evidence,
>> either way, to make a decision here.
>>
>> The other point which continues to be frustrating
is that we need
>> people to make their decision about being
vaccinated based on
>> actual facts. Not based on talking points or
conspiracy theories
>> from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't
magnetic. The
>> vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved
has proven to have
>> a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than
COVID itself. No,
>> the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is
highly effective. No, the vaccines don't have tracking
chips. Even if you survive
>> COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood
of having
>> long-term health effects is much higher (over
10%). No, the
>> vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on.
>>
>> Sadly, it seems that the worst of these
conspiracy theories around
>> the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the
right. I totally
>> respect people who look at the real facts and
decide not to get
>> the vaccine. I can understand how two people
who look at the
>> facts can choose either way, although I do
believe that with the
>> real facts, most people would end up with the
vaccine. But the
>> whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is
detrimental to
>> people actually being able to make an informed
decision as opposed
>> to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and
making decisions
>> based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of
ignoring facts that
>> don't match up with one's world view and you've
got a situation
>> where many people make decisions based not on
facts but on rumors
>> and suppositions.
>>
>> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right
has an exclusive
>> lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for
the record that
>> the left has their fair share as well. Which
side has made up
>> more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with
some issues
>> largely just being both sides making up crap to
make the issue
>> appear larger than it is.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>> <david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>
>> <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> This is the key to the issue. Who decides
what a valid medical
>> reason is. In this country, we have always
allowed an
>> individual to discuss and evaluate medical
treatments with
>> their doctor and their family and then make
their own
>> decision. The individual’s determination of
necessity for a
>> medical treatment may vary from person to
person. Their
>> perception of risk of treatment versus reward
of not getting
>> sick is not the same for every instance.
Most people are
>> pretty smart and will make decision in the
best interest of
>> their situation. Are we now saying that the
individual can
>> no longer make this determination? That
people are not smart
>> enough to make the decision in their best
interest? That
>> someone on an email list knows better than
each individual
>> whether or not that individual should be
taking any medical
>> treatment including a vaccination? I hope
we are not moving
>> into an era in the country where people
decide for others
>> whether or not they should take any medical
treatment,
>> especially when we are talking about an
experimental
>> vaccine. If we are suggesting that the
group can now make
>> decisions for mandatory medical procedures,
that is a pretty
>> slippery slope. I believe in the good of
people and their
>> ability to make a good decision when they
have enough facts. I suspect most unvaccinated folks
will eventually have enough
>> data to determine they are ready to be
vaccinated.
>>
>> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a
person is vaccinated
>> and they believe the vaccine works, why are
they concerned
>> that others are not vaccinated. The only
people at risk are
>> those who have decided not to be vaccinated
and they have
>> accepted that risk.
>>
>> *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>> David,
>> Do you have any research of the
percentage of people who
>> "have a valid medical reason" for not taking
the vaccine? I
>> don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of
the US population
>> the is refusing that are not below the
current age limit. I
>> would WAG that it's probably a lot less than
the 20% number
>> not taking it that would get us to effective
herd immunity.
>>
>> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't
have a solution
>> for.
>>
>> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is
like someone with
>> AIDS spraying you down with their
precious bodily fluids
>> by sneezing. People have been prosecuted
for infecting
>> others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you
don’t want the
>> vax, fine but you need a full body condom
if you come
>> within 100’ of another person.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David
Coudron
>> <david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>>
>> <mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com
<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> There are valid reasons for deciding
to take this
>> vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the
flu vaccine, or a
>> myriad of other medications. Each
decision should be
>> based on risk/reward of that drug and
the medical
>> condition being treated. To think
that you know
>> everyone’s medical situation better
than they do
>> doesn’t seem very feasible and
awfully presumptive. To call them selfish for
making a decision they
>> believe is in their best medical
interest seems overly
>> judgmental. Yes, there are people are
deciding not to
>> take it simply because they think
they shouldn’t be
>> forced to take a medical treatment
against their
>> will. You may feel that we should
force them to take
>> the treatment for the better good.
I doubt you would
>> feel the same about mandatory
castration of young men
>> to curb overcrowding of the earth.
Obviously there
>> is a line somewhere about forced
treatment for the
>> greater good. I am not attempting to
determine where
>> that line is, only suggesting that
folks have valid
>> medical reasons for not deciding to
take the vaccine
>> and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed
for making that
>> decision. It doesn’t seem that far
fetched, but I am
>> learning I see things differently
than some other
>> folks. So be it.
>>
>> I love the argument that we have to
get vaccinated,
>> but we still have to act like the
vaccine doesn’t work
>> in order to save the human race.
Seems like a
>> disconnect there.
>>
>> If we were really so worried about
infecting others or
>> causing harm to others, we would
avoid all other
>> activities that create risk for
others. We’d never
>> drive a car, much less have a beer
and get in a car. I doubt that very many of us
on this list can say
>> that. We would never allow the sale
of fatty foods. We would force each and
everyone to get to a body mass
>> within our accepted range. Keep in
mind life is
>> risky. We don’t need to do stupid
things, but being
>> alive carries with it the risk of
dying. We are all
>> much more likely to die of heart
disease, stroke
>> related illness, or cancer than we
are of Covid. Those are just the facts. Many folks
make small
>> adjustments to reduce the risk of
those likely causes
>> of mortality, but have long ago
passed on decisions to
>> make big changes to eliminate the
possibility of those
>> causes of death.
>>
>> I have long ago decided not to live
in constant fear
>> of these things. While I chose to be
vaccinated, I
>> respect the right of folks to make
the best choice for
>> their situation. I also respect the
right of someone
>> who is not in the best physical
condition to eat a
>> steak. I realize that a drunk
driver might kill me
>> some day, but I respect the right of
individuals to go
>> to a bar and expect that most (but
not all) are
>> responsible enough not to drink and
drive when they
>> have had too much.
>>
>> Keep in mind that this virus would
have never come to
>> our country if we never allowed
anyone in or out of
>> it. But we understand that certain
personal freedoms
>> are worth the possibility of catching
a disease that
>> might kill us. I have a tough time
with the mass
>> hypochondria surrounding this situation.
>>
>> Sorry, I am not meaning to make
anyone mad, just
>> trying to keep perspective. I
just don’t
>> understand why folks get so bent out
of shape if they
>> are already vaccinated. I guess
they don’t believe
>> the vaccine will work because if it
does, there is
>> nothing to worry about.
>>
>> I wager that given Covid’s relation
to influenza like
>> viruses, that it is with us
permanently. We will
>> have yearly updates to the
vaccination, but we’ll
>> never be rid of it. Not because
people aren’t
>> getting vaccinated, but because it
will always mutate
>> ahead of the vaccine, just like the
flu virus. Please don’t take this as an argument
to not work on
>> vaccines, we absolutely should as it
will save
>> lives. But as Carl pointed out
below, vaccines
>> aren’t 100% effective……. 😊
>>
>> I will lay a friendly wager down.
Remember, we had a
>> AIDS epidemic several years ago.
Did we force people
>> to stop having sex or many of the
other high risk
>> things that led to AIDS? Does
anyone even talk about
>> AIDS anymore? 32 million people
died of AIDS and
>> people still die from it. No one
talks about it any
>> more. Covid will be the same way in
10 years. That
>> is my bet.
>>
>> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in
here I am
>> sure. My only original point was
that there are
>> valid reasons folks chose not to get
vaccinated. We
>> can’t and shouldn’t know what they
are, but should
>> respect their right to chose.
>>
>> *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>
>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Carl
>> Peterson
>> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> <af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat
political
>>
>> No vaccination is 100% effective.
From a public
>> policy perspective, you need to pull
on the levers
>> that work in order to get R0 to be
less than 1. We
>> know that a good percentage of people
will follow a
>> mask mandate. Even if most of that
group is
>> vaccinated that lever will still do
something since no
>> vaccine is 100% effective and some
number of that
>> population is walking around as
symptom-free carriers
>> at any given time.
>>
>> Getting most people vaccinated would
be the best way
>> to lower R0, but if someone is too
self centered to
>> care about their neighbors or their
country there
>> isn't much you can do to make them
care. That lever
>> isn't doing much these days. The
issue here really is
>> about what is best for society vs
what an individual
>> thinks is best for themselves. An
individual's
>> personal risk of having serious Covid
complications is
>> pretty low so if they believe there
is some risk to
>> the vaccine and don't account for
externalities, e.g.
>> them infecting other people, then
it's hard to
>> convince them to get vaccinated.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM
Dennis Burgess
>> <dmburg...@linktechs.net
<mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>
>> <mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net
<mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>>> wrote:
>>
>> Why does someone who has made an
informed choice
>> not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA
approved drug have
>> not sit out in timeout? This is
a free society,
>> if you are so scared, you stay
home. I will take
>> my chances.
>>
>> *<image001.png>*
>>
>> *Dennis Burgess*
>>
>> *
>> *Author of "Learn RouterOS-
Second Edition”
>>
>> *Link Technologies, Inc*--
Mikrotik & WISP Support
>> Services
>>
>> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website:
>> http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net>
<http://www.linktechs.net/ <http://www.linktechs.net/>>
>>
>> Create Wireless Coverage’s with
>> www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com>
<http://www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>>
>>
>> Need MikroTik Cloud Management:
>> https://cloud.linktechs.net
<https://cloud.linktechs.net>
>>
>> *From:* AF
<af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>> *On Behalf Of
>> *Jan-GAMs
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT
somewhat political
>>
>> There is no having a sane
discussion on this
>> topic. This is more like a
whining child having
>> an open temper-tantrum in public.
Un-vaxxed
>> persons are a health hazard and
attempting to
>> explain this to a child is a bit
difficult. Those
>> who don't have a vaccine should
not be allowed in
>> public. Every time a non-vaxxed
person gets sick
>> with Covid there is the potential
for a new
>> variant even worse than the Delta
variant.
>> Un-vaxxed persons should be
quarrantined as they
>> are a health-hazard to everyone
around them and to
>> the public at large.
>>
>> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron
wrote:
>>
>> I know, we can all make our
own decisions.
>> However, I don’t believe I
have stated
>> anything that varies from the
facts. I can
>> send you the Moderna sheet I
received with my
>> vaccine if you want to see that.
>>
>> Your points about FDA
approval are probably
>> accurate, however, why is not
OK to say that I
>> want to wait for the
approval? That doesn’t
>> seem so unreasonable. We
don’t let folks on
>> the plane based on the
likelihood that those
>> on the no-fly list probably
won’t show up to
>> get on the plane anyway. We
still check each
>> and every person to make
sure. Just like we
>> do the FDA approval process
to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell
drug companies
>> “if you are pretty sure you’d
pass anyway, we
>> won’t bother putting you
through the approval
>> process” We don’t do that
for good reason.
>>
>> I agree with you on the memes
both ways.
>> Neither approach are helping
the situation. It should be a
discussion based upon the
>> scientific merits of the
situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke
at the
>> intelligence of those that
don’t agree with
>> their decision.
>>
>> There is no way to know this
for sure, but I
>> wonder how many folks
publicly shaming others
>> for not taking the vaccine
know that it is not
>> FDA approved?
>>
>> Likely won’t change lots of
folks decisions,
>> nor am I suggesting it should
have. But I
>> don’t think that those of us
that decided to
>> go ahead with the vaccination
get to make
>> medical decisions for those
who aren’t
>> comfortable with an
experimental vaccine.
>>
>> *From:* AF
<af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>>
>>
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of
>> *Adam Moffett
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021
2:56 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> <mailto:af@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT
somewhat political
>>
>> I'm not calling anybody
stupid, but I don't
>> agree with most of your list.
>>
>> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David
Coudron wrote:
>>
>> Here is what I find
particularly
>> challenging about suggesting that folks
>> who have chosen not to
take the vaccine
>> are not that smart.
>>
>> 1. Folks who do that
never talk about
>> that fact that this
is not an FDA
>> approved medicine/vaccine. I took
>> the Moderna vaccine,
the paperwork
>> clearly stated several facts. Among
>> them are:
>>
>> 1. This is not FDA
approved.
>>
>> It has an emergency use
authorization. FDA
>> approval takes a long time,
but around 90% of
>> the submissions end up
approved because they
>> are pretty well tested by the
manufacturer
>> before they apply. Anybody
applying for FDA
>> approval already has a pretty
good idea
>> whether it's going to go
through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly
list don't
>> routinely show up at the
airport expecting to
>> board a plane. Presumably
people don't try to
>> get a CDL if they know
they'll fail the drug
>> test. Same idea.
>>
>>
>> 1.
>> 2. This “vaccine”
has not been proven
>> to prevent the virus. While we
>> likely all agree that there is a
>> very good likelihood that this
>> “vaccine” will help prevent it, it
>> is far from a proven fact.
>>
>> 99% of people dying of Covid
right now are
>> un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say
>> maybe it didn't prevent them
from becoming
>> infected, but it clearly
prevents them from dying.
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> 1. The argument is,
“there should be no
>> reason to think this vaccine isn’t
>> safe since people
aren’t dying from
>> taking the vaccine”.
>>
>> I've never heard such an
argument.
>>
>>
>> 1. Vaccines are a
risk/reward type of
>> medical treatment. Every medicine you
>> take has some level
of side effect.
>> The vast majority of
medicines have
>> such negligible side
effects, that
>> they are considered
completely safe.
>> The FDA approval
process exists to
>> ensure we understand the potential of
>> serious side effects and drug
>> interaction issues. If you are 30
>> years old and folks are saying you
>> have to take this
experimental drug to
>> prevent this incredibly small chance
>> of you becoming
seriously ill or
>> dying, it seems like an intelligent
>> thing to say “I am not sure the risk
>> of getting seriously
ill or dying from
>> this disease
outweighs the risk of
>> using an experimental drug”. It used
>> to be that people
relied upon a
>> conversation with their doctor to
>> determine personal risk of disease and
>> use of a drug.
Apparently we no longer
>> do that. We
publicly shame people
>> into using
experimental drugs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. Since it is not FDA
approved, we don’t
>> have a full
understanding of drug
>> interactions with other medicines
>> folks need to take.
>>
>> It isn't some weird new
chemical we just
>> invented this year.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. We likely understand
the very common
>> medicines, but, certainly not all.
We have FDA approval processes for
>> good reason. If for
example, you
>> were under 40 and
were taking seizure
>> control medication, it would be very
>> fair to hold off on
an experimental
>> drug until it is
fully understood if
>> the vaccine might
lessen the
>> effectiveness of the seizure control
>> medication. An incredibly low risk
>> of serious illness or
death from the
>> virus could turn into a good chance of
>> serious injury from seizure. As far
>> as I know data like
that is certainly
>> not available yet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. Why do vaccinated
people feel the need
>> to belittle those
that have decided
>> not to get vaccinated
by an
>> experimental drug?
>>
>> I don't know the answer to
that. I'm not
>> comfortable with that
behavior either. It
>> goes both ways though.
Plenty of memes out
>> there accusing people of
being dumb sheep for
>> taking the vaccine.
>>
>> -- AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -- AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- - Forrest
>> -- AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> *Jay Weekley*
> *Cyber Broadband
> *
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com <https://www.avg.com>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
