Dennis, At this point, those are want the vaccine have it and feel protected. I believe in its effectiveness and am not afraid to go out.
The problem we keep bringing up is half of America is not vaccinated yet. Cases are spiking, ICU beds are filling up, and deaths are increasing. When this happens, state governments have NO CHOICE but to implement shutdowns and mask mandates again because hospitals must have ICU beds available for every other health emergency besides covid. How would you feel if the ICU at your local hospital was full of covid patients while your family gets in a car crash and there's no staff or beds available to save you?! That's what will happen if people don't get the vaccine. I keep saying this to people: the people who hate covid or thinks it's a hoax, people who are anti-vax and anti-mask are the people keeping covid around longer by not doing anything to stop it. If they refuse to vaccinate, mask up, social distance, or even practice proper hygiene, then covid will be around much longer and we will have shutdowns again with business closures and mask mandates. So no, I think vaccinated individuals should have all the freedom to live their life. Then unvaccinated Americans should have to pay for tests, skip big events, and mask up when out in public for their "choice" to not vaccinate. Every choice has consequences and being anti-vax is un-American at this point (unless legit medical reasons prevent it in your doctor's opinion). Do your part to stop the spread or the anti-vax people will literally shut our country down again and the blame will be all on them. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 7:03 AM Dennis Burgess <dmburg...@linktechs.net> wrote: > Or that other person can ware the condom since they are so afraid of it, > or maybe they should not be out in public? > > > > > > *[image: LTI-Full_175px]* > > *Dennis Burgess* > > > Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” > > *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services > > *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net > > Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com > > Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of * Chuck McCown via AF > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 6:20 PM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> > *Cc:* Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying > you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. People have been > prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t > want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ > of another person. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron <david.coud...@advantenon.com> > wrote: > > > > There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles > vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications. Each decision > should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being > treated. To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than > they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them > selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical > interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding > not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a > medical treatment against their will. You may feel that we should force > them to take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would feel > the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of > the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for > the greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that line is, > only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to > take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that > decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see > things differently than some other folks. So be it. > > > > I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to > act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race. Seems > like a disconnect there. > > > > If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to > others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others. > We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt > that very many of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the > sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get to a body > mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t > need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of > dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke > related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the > facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those > likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make > big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death. > > > > I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things. > While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the > best choice for their situation. I also respect the right of someone who > is not in the best physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a > drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals > to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough > not to drink and drive when they have had too much. > > > > Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we > never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that certain > personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that > might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding > this situation. > > > > Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep > perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape > if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe the vaccine > will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry about. > > > > I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is > with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but > we’ll never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, > but because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu > virus. Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we > absolutely should as it will save lives. But as Carl pointed out below, > vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 > > > > I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic > several years ago. Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the > other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS > anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. > No one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. > That is my bet. > > > > Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only original > point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. > We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right > to chose. > > > > > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Carl Peterson > *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, you > need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. > We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even > if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something > since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is > walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time. > > > > Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if > someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country > there isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever isn't doing much > these days. The issue here really is about what is best for society vs > what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's personal > risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if > they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for > externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince > them to get vaccinated. > > > > On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess <dmburg...@linktechs.net> > wrote: > > Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a > NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, > if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances. > > > > > > *<image001.png>* > > *Dennis Burgess* > > > Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” > > *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services > > *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net > > Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com > > Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more like a > whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons > are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit > difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in > public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the > potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed > persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone > around them and to the public at large. > > On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: > > I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I > have stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the > Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that. > > > > Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not > OK to say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so > unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that > those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane > anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure. Just like we > do the FDA approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell > drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother > putting you through the approval process” We don’t do that for good > reason. > > > > I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping > the situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits > of the situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the > intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision. > > > > There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks > publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA > approved? > > > > Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should > have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with > the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t > comfortable with an experimental vaccine. > > > > > > *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf > Of *Adam Moffett > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. > > On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: > > Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks > who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. > > > > 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an > FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork > clearly stated several facts. Among them are: > > > 1. This is not FDA approved. > > It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, > but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty > well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for > FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go > through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up > at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to > get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. > > > > 1. > 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While > we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this > “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. > > 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split > hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it > clearly prevents them from dying. > > > > 1. > > > 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine > isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. > > I've never heard such an argument. > > > > 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every > medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of > medicines have such negligible side effects, that they are considered > completely safe. The FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand > the potential of serious side effects and drug interaction issues. If you > are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this experimental > drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill > or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk > of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of > using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people relied upon a > conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and > use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame > people into using experimental drugs. > > > > > > 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of > drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take. > > It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year. > > > > > 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not > all. We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for example, > you were under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be > very fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood > if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control > medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the > virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from seizure. As > far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet. > > > > > > 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have > decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? > > I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with that behavior > either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out there accusing > people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine. > > > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > -- > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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