Just curious: if you’ve had Covid already, do you guys believe the vaccine should still be mandatory?
I haven’t been vaccinated pretty much only because I’ve had the OG. “The Science” is mixed on whether naturally acquired immunity is better, worse, or same as the vaccine. If I had not had it already I’d get the vaccine. I’m probably more vaccinated than many on this list (hep a/b, typhoid, etc in addition to the usual ones). How many of the unvaccinated fall into this category? How many of the unvaccinated that are in the hospital or dying are on their second infection? Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> on behalf of Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 9:07:24 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political There also is the erosion of trust issue. Many government types either outright lied to get the action they wanted or had restrictions that didn't scale with the current risk. That caused a lack of trust, so now people don't listen to the right stuff said by the right people because previously they lied. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ics-il.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C848e8bb8ba9b400e8edf08d94f6d55fe%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637628153286196725%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=VrOhrmGgHdBwlXtx93flrvAk8IBh78vfqiM%2F193xXvo%3D&reserved=0> 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<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fchannel%2FUCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg&data=04%7C01%7C%7C848e8bb8ba9b400e8edf08d94f6d55fe%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637628153286256689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=eLHy1pKqMI%2Fe2X923%2FxHkIrJWjqG%2B7fpxH75sXWrzAA%3D&reserved=0> ________________________________ From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <li...@packetflux.com> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2021 7:38:12 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political To be clear I don't disagree with you about getting vaccinated is the correct thing. But this isn't going to happen as long as there are loud voices in influential places which are continuing to push an agenda that is contrary to this message and is based on falsehoods. As I mentioned, I can understand that some people can look at the actual facts and make a decision for themselves which is contrary to what you and I believe is the correct opinion. I try very hard not to judge people who have a reasoned opinion based on facts. For example, if I was 20 and worked from home and generally wasn't around people, I might be wanting to wait a little bit more while we gain a bit more knowledge about the side effects to decide which vaccine was safest for me. There are lots of other examples where it might make sense to delay immunization based on the actual facts. But, all of us are going to have to gain immunity to this virus. You can either do it through a vaccine that has a very low risk of side effects (but not zero) or gain it naturally which has a 1% chance of death and 10-15% chance of long-term effects. Plus, gaining it naturally has all of the nasty public health issues we're discussing. This isn't a choice between "I'll take the risk of getting COVID", it's a choice between "What is the risk to me when I finally get COVID as an unvaccinated person vs what is the chance of me having bad side effects when having the vaccine". Statistically, the vaccine wins by every measure we have today. But people are bad with statistics and worse, those loud voices I mentioned hype up the low-instance side effects of getting the vaccine and downplay the significant risks around getting COVID if you are non-immunized so a non-informed person would be led to believe that the low-instance side effects are worse in most cases than the downsides to getting COVID. So there are a lot of people out there who are not able to make an informed decision based on actual risks. Instead, they're making decisions based on hype and lies. On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 5:57 PM Jaime Solorza <losguyswirel...@gmail.com<mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote: Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and other ones.. I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit what you believe... On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <li...@packetflux.com<mailto:li...@packetflux.com>> wrote: I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up further, but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places where people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from infection is if other people behaved like they might be a carrier. That is, limit social interaction, stay away from other people if possible, wear masks, practice good hygiene. Some people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want to be infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. Both sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right of being able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up infected. At this point, the government needed to step in and make a decision about who's rights were going to be protected, and because of the nature of COVID, most places ended up choosing the rights of people not to be infected. Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having long-term effects from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if not less). As a result, now that anyone who wants a shot can get one, I really could care less whether someone else wears a mask or gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules should reflect that, which most of them do at this point. There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're going to have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask mandates and similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kick unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and let them die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take the risk of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you need it. There is also the concern about variants being generated by the virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. I'm going to ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy as then you have to start asking difficult questions about what the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a population to either be vaccinated or continue quarantine+mask wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence, either way, to make a decision here. The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on actual facts. Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't magnetic. The vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself. No, the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective. No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you survive COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on. Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get the vaccine. I can understand how two people who look at the facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine. But the whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors and suppositions. And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that the left has their fair share as well. Which side has made up more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue appear larger than it is. On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron <david.coud...@advantenon.com<mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote: This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their family and then make their own decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting sick is not the same for every instance. Most people are pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of their situation. Are we now saying that the individual can no longer make this determination? That people are not smart enough to make the decision in their best interest? That someone on an email list knows better than each individual whether or not that individual should be taking any medical treatment including a vaccination? I hope we are not moving into an era in the country where people decide for others whether or not they should take any medical treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine. If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope. I believe in the good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts. I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated. Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not vaccinated. The only people at risk are those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have accepted that risk. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Robert Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM To: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political David, Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not below the current age limit. I would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity. Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for. On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ of another person. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron <david.coud...@advantenon.com><mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com> wrote: There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications. Each decision should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being treated. To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment against their will. You may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see things differently than some other folks. So be it. I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race. Seems like a disconnect there. If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others. We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt that very many of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death. I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best choice for their situation. I also respect the right of someone who is not in the best physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive when they have had too much. Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that certain personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation. Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry about. I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. No one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That is my bet. Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only original point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right to chose. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com><mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Carl Peterson Sent: Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com><mailto:af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time. Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country there isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is about what is best for society vs what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's personal risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince them to get vaccinated. On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess <dmburg...@linktechs.net<mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net>> wrote: Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances. <image001.png> Dennis Burgess Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linktechs.net%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C848e8bb8ba9b400e8edf08d94f6d55fe%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637628153286256689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=%2FjiRp0l6wN6zh1m1DCRIrvF1Lf%2B1CPt%2FFlg2tAAzbDk%3D&reserved=0> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.towercoverage.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C848e8bb8ba9b400e8edf08d94f6d55fe%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637628153286266687%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ve17Fs2fFAgztPexc8CGAm9CxLbN%2F8yROBmmdN8DTTE%3D&reserved=0> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcloud.linktechs.net%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C848e8bb8ba9b400e8edf08d94f6d55fe%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637628153286266687%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=MUQIpgcKmNhkIhahM%2BAZkY7t%2B8CpjmQzdlpbH0RD92I%3D&reserved=0> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM To: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more like a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large. On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I have stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that. Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure. Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval process” We don’t do that for good reason. I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping the situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision. There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine. From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com><mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Adam Moffett Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM To: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among them are: * This is not FDA approved. It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. * * This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying. * 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. I've never heard such an argument. 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe. The FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug interaction issues. If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs. 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take. It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year. 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all. We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from seizure. As far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet. 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with that behavior either. It goes both ways though. 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