>But knowing that even the Indians or Chinese or
Malays could be
>taught to be responsible citizens one could argue that by replacing
>or reforming what is dysfunctional in Indian democracy, it is indeed
>possible to change things for the better.
>taught to be responsible citizens one could argue that by replacing
>or reforming what is dysfunctional in Indian democracy, it is indeed
>possible to change things for the better.
Please don't try to sneak. There is a
haven and hell difference in replacing and reforming. We all
agree in reforming. If you look around, India always believed in reform at
least on religious field, and that is what India has been doing for thousands of
years. That is how the Indian society has been evolving. Without the reformation
of Xong.kordev, Assamese society would not be what it is today. In
political arena also, where we are in experienced, we need to do that now. I
showed how to do that reform in democracy by the people getting more involved.
Democracy can be reformed in a meaningful way only when the reform
comes from bottom up from the people and by the people. For this we need to
set up creditable NGOs (who does not believe that an NGO cannot
or need not be neutral because the other NGOs are not neutral).
You on the other hand took the position
against NGOs getting involved and stated that let some experts find out what
need to be reformed and let 'others' do the reform and we sit tight. Are
you changing your position now?
Rajen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chan Mahanta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ram Sarangapani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Rajib Das"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a
village
>
>
> I have already expressed my fault -- of holding up Singapore's
> democracy as a model for emulating.
>
> But I also explained, WHY I did that. It was very specifically in the
> context of BAD people, like BAD Indians or BAD Assamese, or (BAD
> Malays and Chinese), who could not be expected to behave well. But
> the same Indians and Malays and Chinese with similar British colonial
> pasts and inheriting similar British governance seem to have overcome
> those traits in just a quarter century.
>
> What happened?
>
> Take wild guess Ram.
>
> Knowing what I do now, I am not advocating replacing Indian democracy
> with the 'Singapore style of democracy'.
>
> But knowing that even the Indians or Chinese or Malays could be
> taught to be responsible citizens one could argue that by replacing
> or reforming what is dysfunctional in Indian democracy, it is indeed
> possible to change things for the better.
>
> Now does it mean that one must emulate Singapore alone? No way.
>
> How about the British System? Or how about the American System? Or
> how about those parts of such systems that could serve well for
> India, either in whole, or modified to fit India's needs?
>
> There are umpteen different ways to demonstrate the same things that
> Rajib does in far more useful, productive and beneficial ways. Just
> because Rajib is stuck in that mode does not mean that it is the ONLY
> possible outcome, just like reforms to desi-demokrasy does not
> necessarily mean adopting Stalin style or Pol_Pot style regimes.
>
> Such mindless comparisons only demonstrate a paucity of imagination
> or creativity, that's all.
>
> c-da
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 9:12 AM -0500 5/21/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> > > I assumed the discussion was about Singapore model in
> >> its entirety - not just Singapore's record of
> >> cleanliness. Am I wrong there?
> >
> >No, no, Rajib, you are wrong here. Didn't you read C'da's response.
> >They would like the whole enchilada.
> >
> >Nevertheless, you solution will work. It just ought to be made
> >permanent, and not just for 5 years. That way, Assam will not only
> >have clean cities, but good governance for ever.:-)
> >
> >C'da - don't you and KJD love Rajib's solution here?
> >
> >
> >So much for this 'the grass is greener on the other side' attitude!
> >--Ram
> >On 5/21/05, Rajib Das <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> I assumed the discussion was about Singapore model in
> >> its entirety - not just Singapore's record of
> >> cleanliness. Am I wrong there?
> >>
> >> If I am, why not just impose presidential rule for 5
> >> years (the governors of Assam have been very proactive
> >> in recent years), throw all politicians out of the
> >> state, bring in the army - yes even to do policing
> >> duties, allow them unfettered access to the "boys",
> >> hunt them down and kill them without asking questions,
> >> kill those who support them, sack corrupt or even
> >> non-performing bureacrats without due recourse to law
> >> to defend themselves and yes throw all Marwari
> >> businessmen out. Let's see: take the guns away from
> >> SULFA and get the AASU to stop doing anything other
> >> than studies.
> >>
> >> Yes.. beat people up for peeing on the roadside, raze
> >> slums to the ground, lathicharge folks when the
> >> protest about bad roads, break all the extensions
> >> people have done with encroachments on the road, close
> >> the roadside vendor shops that don't have permits,
> >> don't allow village patients to come to town hospitals
> >> and park by the road. Jail kids who bunk classes to
> >> watch a movie. Cane them publicly when they get into a
> >> fight.
> >>
> >> Finally, the public, bureacrats, police, the judiciary
> >> cannot complain if and when the governor decides to go
> >> transfer all of Fancy Bazar real estate to his name.
> >>
> >> Which to do and which not?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- Ram Sarangapani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > KJD,
> >> >
> >> > Bhale ne?
> >> >
> >> > >By all appearances and measures, it has been
> >> > working astoundingly
> >> > well.If anti->social behavior(
> >> > corruption,littering,jaywalking,spitting) is allowed
> > > > to
> >> > > continue in the name of democracy, then that class
> >> > of democracy should be
> >> > > thrown out of window--as simple as that
> >> >
> >> > That is a mouthful. Why do think, some netters (I am
> >> > one) do not think
> >> > Singapore is a model for India or even Assam to
> >> > emulate?
> >> >
> >> > Let me try and explain, if you will.
> >> > Singapore is considered the cleanest in the world.
> >> > And how did it
> >> > accomplish this feat (that even a rich and advanced
> >> > country like the
> > > > US hasn't)?
> >> >
> >> > Simple, by instituting draconian laws and
> >> > punishments on people who
> >> > misbehave, are corrupt, litter etc, etc. And sure
> >> > enough, people fall
> >> > in line and do whatever the great leader stipulates
> >> > (since 1959, if I
> >> > may add).
> >> >
> >> > People will have to choose. Will it be law & order,
> >> > or law & order
> >> > with a dash of 'due process' for people who break
> >> > civic laws. There is
> >> > NO due process in Singapore. Would you want that in
> >> > Assam/India?
> >> > Inspite of what C'da thinks, India does have more
> >> > 'due process' than
> >> > Singapore.
> >> >
> >> > I agree that anti-social behavior should not be
> >> > confused with freedom.
> >> > The problem, I see is in the applicability of such
> >> > standards in say
> >> > for example Guwahati.
> >> >
> >> > You ban jaywalking. Millions walk everyday. There
> >> > are no crosswalks or
> >> > even cops to regulate pedestrians. How would you
> >> > apply this law?
> >> >
> >> > I can go, but you catch my drift. First the Guwahati
> >> > authorities must
> >> > have a system in place, and then you can order
> >> > people to follow the
> >> > rules. But you can't impose rules and regulations
> >> > (and punishments)
> >> > and expect people to follow them when they just
> >> > cannot.
> >> >
> >> > If you ban littering. The last time I checked,
> >> > Guwahati had little or
> >> > no trash pickups or dumpsters. The GMC just doesn't
> >> > function well,
> >> > There are no thrash dumps that all the city garbage
> >> > can be picked up
> >> > and processed. Then to top it all, after the rains
> >> > every year, we
> >> > suddenly come to realize, that Guwahati actually
> >> > doesn't have a
> >> > drainage system that works. Where will all that
> >> > filth & muck go?
> >> >
> >> > The other point is educating people. The rickshaw
> >> > puller or the dhobi
> >> > has never been 'educated' in civic duties. How do
> >> > you plan to get a
> >> > model civic society?
> >> >
> >> > And what about those middle class people in nice
> >> > homes. They manage to
> >> > keep their homes clean, and throw the trash out on
> >> > the streets. I am
> >> > not sure they need to be educated on civic duties,
> >> > but they too may
> >> > not have any other options than to throw stuff on
> >> > the streets.
> >> >
> >> > I don't know the answers.
> >> > But the price in the Singapore model is just too
> >> > darn expensive. The
> >> > price of having vastly curtailed other freedoms
> >> > because I want my city
> >> > to look clean.
> >> >
> >> > Its easier said - about this emulation business.
> >> >
> >> > --Ram
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 5/20/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Cd, Mridul Bhuyan has said it all.You
> >> > see,Singapore just does not fit some
> >> > > of our fellow netter's categories.By all
> >> > appearances and measures, it has
> >> > > been working astoundingly well.If anti-social
> >> > behavior(
> >> > > corruption,littering,jaywalking,spitting) is
> >> > allowed to
> >> > > continue in the name of democracy, then that class
> >> > of democracy should be
> >> > > thrown out of window--as simple as that.But
> >> > then,folks of this forum seem to
> >> > > have mastered the craft of devising means by
> >> > creating new alibi or pretext
> >> > > or rationalization ( Whatever one calls it) in
> >> > order to buttress their
> >> > > arguement.Fling in few catch-phrases like "
> >> > democracy/political rights" and
> >> > > the job is done.Can anyone deny that India is a
> >> > prime example of a
> >> > > de-administration--a system of
> >> > administration,which is as dumb to the need
> >> > > of its citizens as a dead dodo?
> >> > >
> >> > > Well,well--set up "Institute of moral science" in
> >> > every nook and crany of
> >> > > Assam and all problems will be taken care of, of
> >> > couse, by itself!!!
> > > > >
> >> > > KJD
> >> > > _______________________________________________
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> >> > >
> >> >
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