>To give it one more try,
without further biting, would you just ask the specific question
that >you assert I did not answer so that I can answer and
close the issue.
Well, you keep missing it Rajen. Once again, here it is:
BTW, I have been extremely curious about your solution -- I mean how to cure the Assamese or the Indians of their BADness.
>I realize that I should not expect you or anybody else to
come up with a >complete set of blueprints, signed, sealed and
ready to submit for permits, >considering that we are discussing
and debating concepts, and that none of us >have either the
expertise or the resources to deliver a complete plan. But how
>about just the concept/s?
If you need context to jog your memory, here is one, of
many such:
>Very true and in my line
of thinking. Same for corruption, accountability, responsibility,
responsiveness, transparency and all that. These cannot be reformed by
changing the imaginary system with more laws and rules on paper. We
will have to change or reform the culture. People's attitude will
have to be changed. There is no short cut for that. For corruption to
be reduced in Assam, Assamese society will have to stop condoning
corruption in society. As long as they will accept people like
Prafulla Mahanta, Hiteswar Saikia and others who built palaces in
Mumbai and Delhi out of public money, and re-elect them again and
again, Assamese cannot reduce corruption. The open acceptactance
of corruption by Assamese society will have to stop. The attitude,
"Everybody is corrupt, that is why I am corrupt. India is bad,
that is why Assam is bad" attitude will have to go. In Assam also
It Takes a Village to turn things around.
c
At 10:06 AM -0500 5/21/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
>You know I am 'leketa' Rajen . I will keep asking this until you answer, or take the fifth amendment :-).
I don't mind someone being 'leketa' as along as it make sense. However, I thought I have answered everything as I could answer to George Bush why Iraq War is a bad bad thing and does and will never make sense to me. At least I thought my statements have everything that an intelligent person can derive other answers not made. However, you still left with the impression that there is still something I am avoiding to answer. (Here instead of 'leketa', 'dheruwa xak' may be the right analogy.). To give it one more try, without further biting, would you just ask the specific question that you assert I did not answer so that I can answer and close the issue.
Rajen
. ----- Original Message -----
From: Chan MahantaTo: Barua25 ; Assam@pikespeak.uccs.eduSent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 9:12 AMSubject: Re: [Assam] It takes a villageRajen:At 2:33 AM -0500 5/21/05, Barua25 wrote:
>You could be right that I missed your point. Would you mind correcting me? Just a short brief I on what your point is and how I >was heading in the complete opposite direction will do. Maybe I will get it yet, in spite of my other worldly dispositions :-).
Chandan:
Frankly speaking, trying to explain to you, is like explaining George Bush why Iraq War is not justified and why it does not make sense in spite of his twisted logics. So unless you change your outlook on your own, there is no force on earth that you will ever understand why many of simple folks like us simply and flatly donot agree with your views.
*** That is a very very broad indictment on my intelligence. But you are entitled to it. And you may actually be entirely right about it.However you did not even attempt to answer the question I asked---why you concluded that my understanding of the issues you raised was 180 degrees opposite of what you had in mind. I asked you some questions--which you avoided answering entirely.I know I am a complex person. However I am not sure of your simplicity.You and others have demonstrated well how simplistic you are on some of these issues. I also realize that you do not agree with my views. See I am not all that much of a block-head :-). But you ought to be able o answer questions on your verdicts, or assertions, ore recommendations. Is that too much to expect?
In Assamese, it may be called, 'obujonok bujuwa, dheruwa tharik xijuwa." And this goes both ways. Neither you will be able to convince us nor it seems we will be able to convince you to see our point. I think we should leave things at this. We should agree to disagree.
*** I know it is exasperating. You don't need to tell ME about that. And I never contested the idea of agreeing to disagree. Far be it for me than to go terrorize those who disagree with my views.But again, am I out of line in asking questions of you all about your own views?I try to answer, even though without much success. But it appears that you avoid yours. Why?
>And don't avoid the question I asked, if you don't mind, about your solution concepts. If for nothing else, as fair play. Because I >always answer your and others' questions, to the best of my abilities.
*** What about GOI transforming to a Singapore mode? Would you approve of it? If not why? And even if yes, would it be possible?
Do you really want me to answer this question? I can answer it two ways:
(1) I can tell you in the words of Nehru that you are trying to find the answer withourt knowing the question.
*** This one means NOTHING to me Rajen. This is pure gobledy-gook. Just because Nehru said that, it is not a bit of great wisdom, more so disconnected from the context under which he might have uttered it.
(2) Or I can explain my answer the following way:
The very fact that you are asking the question shows how far apart you are from many of us in understanding th problem.
Huh?
On this question itself, I can ask you 10 more questions.
Of course you can. Did I suggest you cannot? I merely asked you why you think emulating some of Singapore's successful idea is so outrageous for INDIA. You already wished me luck on the Assam context. But you expressed surprise and confusion about its applicability in INDIA. I asked you WHY. That's all.
What question is this? Why anybody will want to change the GOI system to Singapore model? What for?
Hmmm! We do need to go back to square one again don't we? Well, for a lot of reasons Rajen, namely:1. Low rate of corruption 2. Very low rate of petty crime. Extremely low high crimes. 3. An efficiently running government as could be seen in their civic life, economic health, high quality education,gender equality, so on ad so forth.4. I can go on and on.
What you want to achieve? What is the Singapore model anyway?
All of the above and more.
How much you really know about the Singapore model?
Actually not much. Which I explained in a subsequent post in response to Ram's post which showed a rather dictatorial angle to Singapore governance, which will indeed be inapplicable to India's circumstances.Had you explained that, I could have accepted your view. But you are using the no-comprendo argument. You are evading the issue.
Why it will be good for the Indians? Why Indians will be able to do things differently under Singapore model that they cannot do now?
Huh?
Here again, one finds that you seem to be acting exactly like George Bush who ignoring all "garden variety" logics hold to the position that Iraq War is the solution, and used the entire government machinery on a propaganda to harp on the message and ultimately fooled the American people.
Huh?
There is however one difference. Indian people may not be all educated, informative and resourceful like the Americans, but Indian public, I think, have a better sense of wisdom.
*** That is good to hear. Makes me feel better already. Only question now is how do you reconcile that with your assertions that the people of India are BAD. That they will begin to tear down a perfectly workable British system of democracy as soon as they lay their hands on it. So on and so forth.Are you retracting that series of assertions ?
I think, in case of India, ignoring the "garden variety" logics, neither one can fool the Indian people that imposing 'Singapore Model' from the top is the solution for India,
Is this how you explain things Rajen :-)?
nor the Assamese people that 'independence' is the solution for Assam
Is this another explanation, a logically derived explanation of your assertions.
Here again, I think we should gracefully agree to disagree.
Rajen
You make me feel as if I am going to come bite you if you don't agree with me :-).Finally, you avoided answering the the main question I asked:
But may be not. Looks like you are talking about Assam. taking Assam away, making her an independent country on a Singapore model? I am glad that finally you have voiced your position.
*** Singapore is only one model. I cited that, specifically, because you are stuck in the notion that improvement is not possible because the Assamese are BAD, or even the Indians are BAD, and that until they become GOOD, they are doomed. I don't think I need to tell you again what I think of that notion. So I cited Singapore to demonstrate that the 'people are bad, and thus nothing could be done theory' of yours and staunchly supported by Ram, is a very holy one--full of large holes that is.
There are also other good models around to draw lessons from.
BTW, I have been extremely curious about your solution -- I mean how to cure the Assamese or the Indians of their BADness.
I realize that I should not expect you or anybody else to come up with a complete set of blueprints, signed, sealed and ready to submit for permits, considering that we are discussing and debating concepts, and that none of us have either the expertise or the resources to deliver a complete plan. But how about just the concept/s?
You know I am 'leketa' Rajen . I will keep asking this until you answer, or take the fifth amendment :-).c
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Chan Mahanta
To: Rajen Barua ; Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a village
Rajen:
You could be right that I missed your point. Would you mind correcting me? Just a short brief i on what your point is and how I was heading in the complete opposite direction will do. Maybe I will get it yet, in spite of my other worldly dispositions :-).
And don't avoid the question I asked, if you don't mind, about your solution concepts. If for nothing else, as fair play. Because I always answer your and others' questions, to the best of my abilities.
c
At 10:06 AM -0500 5/20/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
You have misssed the issue 180 deg.
Seems we are living in two different planets
Hobo Diok
Rajen
----- Original Message -----
From: Chan Mahanta
To: Rajen Barua ; Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a village
At 11:13 AM -0500 5/19/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
Chandan:
I was confused.
*** No need to be confused Rajen. I know it is convenient to be confused sometimes. But like everything else, misuse or overuse, could leave people wondering :-).
I thought you were talking about changing GOI to Singapore model.
*** What about GOI transforming to a Singapore mode? Would you approve of it? If not why? And even if yes, would it be possible?
But may be not. Looks like you are talking about Assam. taking Assam away, making her an independent country on a Singapore model? I am glad that finally you have voiced your position.
*** Singapore is only one model. I cited that, specifically, because you are stuck in the notion that improvement is not possible because the Assamese are BAD, or even the Indians are BAD, and that until they become GOOD, they are doomed. I don't think I need to tell you again what I think of that notion. So I cited Singapore to demonstrate that the 'people are bad, and thus nothing could be done theory' of yours and staunchly supported by Ram, is a very holy one--full of large holes that is.
There are also other good models around to draw lessons from.
BTW, I have been extremely curious about your solution -- I mean how to cure the Assamese or the Indians of their BADness.I realize that I should not expect you or anybody else to come up with a complete set of blueprints, signed, sealed and ready to submit for permits, considering that we are discussing and debating concepts, and that none of us have either the expertise or the resources to deliver a complete plan. But how about just the concept/s?
I know some of you have demanded detailed solutions of me, but I know why. That is only because you all had trouble rebutting my ideas conceptually, so you had to resort to attacking them on grounds that I had never proposed a detailed solution blueprint. But that is kind of childish, won't you think? I mean, who are you kidding? That is insulting the intelligence of Assam Netters. I may not agree with many Netters' ideas or beliefs, but I would not insult their intelligence with such tactics or arguments.
I say, Best of Luck. Get the support of the Assamese people and go for it.
*** Thanks for the support. But you did not explain whether you think it is a good idea or bad. Do you believe it would be good for Assam? If not why not?
That is the beauty of democracy. You can do what you want with the support of the majority.
*** This can be tricky you know? For example, what if a majority vote in CORRUPTION as a preferred way of life? Or stealing from others? Or oppressing the minorities and the weak? Of course I mean democratically, with majority approval.
Also, since you and others have decide that the majority of the people are BAD, how could they be trusted to vote in or support something GOOD? And even if they did vote in something good, how could you be sure it is not merely for show? And like the bad people they are, how could you be sure they will not start degrading it from day one?
It seems to me here that there is a big flaw in your concept of democracy. There is a big fallacy.
But what is it? Think about it Rajen.
If some monority opposes, you can always play desi-demokresi.
*** This comment further demonstrates and accentuates the fact that the concept of democracy that you throw around is fallacious and flawed. It is a double whammy.
Question now is if you realize what you are missing. I know you are eminently able to figure out where the fallacies lie. I also think you wrote what you did on a knee-jerk response, without thinking things thru. But just so you don't leave everyone guessing, perhaps you will retract and explain, what you missed here.
Don't worry, we won't think of you as untrustworthy or any such thing. We all slip sometime. The trick here is to be able to correct ourselves when we figure out, or are shown, what the mistakes are.
It is the ability to learn from ones mistakes that separates one from the incorrigible, like operators of desi-demokrasy often are.
Take care.
c
Rajen
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a village
Kamal:
My guess is that most, if not all, of the Assam net advocates of desi-
demokrasy would accept a Singapore style democratic republic, even though
they might not be able to do so in these discussions, primarily for face saving
considerations :-).
But it is not hard to imagine that there will be a period of transition of a few
months, even years--two, three--maybe even five, which could cause
displeasure, even suffering, particularly to those who have gotten used to
their comfortable dispensations aquired under the present state of anarchy
and oligarchy.
c-da
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: 2005/05/18 Wed PM 11:20:26 EDT
> To: Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu
> Subject: [Assam] It takes a village
>
>
Cd,
That's why I wrote " This is not to say that such actions can be yoked to religion itself".
You are right.Just forty years ago, Singapore was a war-battered British port,which had rapidly growing,poor,uneducated population living in slums and households.Singapore struggled along until 1965,when it became an independent nation with prime minister Yew in firm control.Forty years later,75% of families,the previous slum-dwellers own their homes.Despite a few harsh measures ( eg,forced savings),Singaporeans are happy with their paternalistic government.KJD
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