The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Shahram, No one is preventing any of your posts from appearing here. What is happening is that some of your posts have been sent to me privately rather than to the list. You might want to double check who you are replying to more carefully next time.
Aside from that, this is not an academic list. This lists exists to allow Baha'i academics to discuss matters of Baha'i scholarship with Baha'is who are not academics. It is a private list and we do have every right to decide who can or cannot post here. But I am not the list owner, Mark Foster is, and he will be the one to decide how long to let this discussion continue. We have, from time to time, allowed non-Baha'is to participate here, but I do not much appreciate your presenting yourself as a Baha'i here when it is clear that you are not. Also, using caps in cyberspace is shouting and is therefore considered rude, so if you want to continue this discussion I ask that you turn your caps off. The reason I know you are not a Baha'i is because any Iranian Baha'i would know the slander being spread about us is false. Having been denied access to higher education for the last thirty years they would not be suggesting that we are breaking the law by teaching the Faith in universities. How can we teach the Faith there if we cannot even attend them? For a Baha'i to attend a university they would have to identify themselves as a Muslim and no Baha'i would lie about their religion as you have apparently done. This is not a matter of accepting criticism it is a matter of knowing the most basic facts about the condition of the Baha'is in Iran which you appear to be totally ignorant of. Did you even know that Baha'is cannot attend universities? Why are our graveyards being demolished in Iran? We're the Baha'is buried there rising out of their tombs and teaching the Faith as well? Why does the government not stop those acts of vandalism instead of arresting those Baha'is who report them? If indeed you are a lawyer then why is it you cannot produce the texts of the laws in question which Baha'is have supposedly violated? Is it just or legal for some government official to declare an act illegal after the fact and then arrest a Baha'i for it? Is it just or legal for Baha'is to be denied legal counsel even when it is offered to them as was the case with the seven Baha'is who were supposed to go on trial last week? Will they be allowed to consult with their attorney Shirin Ebadi who so far they have not even been allowed to meet? As for the Baha'i stand against genocide, Baha'is all over the world have urged their governments to sign international agreements against genocide. If you want my personal opinion about Gaza I suggest you go to Theology Web and take a look at what I wrote there. But I don't discuss those kinds of things on a Baha'i forum. Granted that the number of Baha'is who have so far been executed is not very large, but when you deny a community all access to higher education, when you fire them from their jobs and take away their pensions, there is clearly a cultural genocide going on. But to say that Baha'is were given a fair trial and allowed to defend themselves is simply not true. In most cases there were no public trials and no one new about their execution until the remains of these Baha'is were discovered, many of which showed signs of extreme torture. Let me ask you this, sixteen year old Mona Mahmudnizhad was indeed given a fair trial before she was hung, who served as her defense attorney? About the other eight Baha'i women who were hung with her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad. As for there not being a State of Israel during the time of Baha'u'llah, that is precisely my point. Baha'is not teaching the Faith in Palestine has nothing whatsoever to do with the State of Israel. Baha'is have not taught the Faith in Palestine since the time of Baha'u'llah, and it has not mattered who was ruling the country, be it the Ottomans, the British or the Israelis. As for the letter from the Universal House of Justice, I have no idea what letter you are referring to. Feel free to post it here along with the exact text of an Iranian law which Baha'is have supposedly broken. warmest, Susan On 2/23/09, shahram rohani <shahramroh...@yahoo.com> wrote: > DEAR DR.S.MANECK, > TKS YR REPLY.I WISH U HD LET MY POST APPEARED IN THE SITE,SO THAT I CUD FEEL > FREE ATMOSPHERE HERE.NOW THE READER THINKS THAT U R SELECTING OR CENSURING > THE TEXTS,N IT IS NOT INTERESTING FR AN ACADEMIC SITE. > I PERSONALLY RESPECT YOU,N TRY TO READ YR LITERATURE AND COMMENTS.BUT DO U > MEAN THAT YOU CAN DECIDE OR LET WHO IS A BAHAI OR NOT? > I DO NOT NEED TO TELL YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TT I AM A BAHAI BY MY PARENTS.THE > FLOWER HS ITS SMELL,AND FREE SEARCH IS OUR TEACHING.WE R NOT TEACHERS FR > OTHERS.DO U SEE WHAT I MEAN? > IF WE CUD NOT TOLERATE THE LEAST CRITICISM,THEN HOW CAN WE EXPECT OTHERS,WHO > CONSIDER US AS THEIR ENEMIES,TO LET US TO DENY THEIR BASIC THOUGHTS? > FYI,I HV STUDIED LAW,AND INT'L LAW.IF U HD THE SAME BACKGROUND,IT WUD HV > BEEN EASY FR U TO UNDERSTAND TT THE RULE MADE BY GENERAL ATTORNEY IN IRAN > IS SENSE AND COMPETENT.IT IS NONSENSE TO NEGLECT IT BY APPLICATION THE WORDS > OF BANI SADR.EVEN IN THIS VERY CLEAR CASE I IGNORE THE RULE OF A > COMPETENT AUTHORITY OF IRAN BY APPLICATION TO A COMMENT OF AN OPPONENT OF > THE IRAN GOVERNMENT. > IN MY LAST POST I SAID TT THE BAHAI AUTHORITIES TRY TO WALK ON THE WAYS OF > THE OPPONENTS OF IRAN GOVERNMENT,NOT THOSE IN WAR WITH IRAN. > DEAR DR,MANECK, > YOU HV SAID TT YOU ARE NOT AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT,BUT U ARE AGAINST THE > GENOCIDE.BUT I HV NOT SEEN EVEN A WORD,A PRAY,... FM YOU ABT THE GAZA > PEOPLE,OR THE GENOCIDE IN ROWANDA,SOMALI,ETC. > IF WE ACCEPT TT 200 BAHAIS HV BEEN KILLED IN IRAN[AND IT IS TOO MUCH,AND A > PITY].WITH REGARDS TO THE 300-350 000 POPULATION OF THE IRAN BAHAI COMMUNITY > IT IS HALF A PERCENT.THOSE PEOPLE HV BEEN TRIALED,THEY HV GIVEN > THEIR DEFENDS...DURING 30 YEARS.THEY HV HD OPPORTUNITY TO ASK FORGIVENESS FM > COURTS,...BUT IN GAZA,IN LEBANON,IN ROWANDA,THOUSANDS,AND THOUSANDS OF > INNOCENT PEOPLE WERE KILLED OUT OF THEIR DECISION TO INTERFERE THE WAR.I > BELIEVE THAT HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. > CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MANY OF THE IRANIAN BAHAI MARTYRS HV BEEN TEENAGE > GIRLS? THEN YOU WL SEE THAT IT IS A BITTER JOKE TO CALL IT A GENOCIDE. > RE PROHIBITION OF TEACHING IN THE SACRED LAND CAN YOU QUOTE THE TEXT AND/OR > REFERENCE OF BAHAULLAH ?BECAUSE AT THE TIME OF BAHAULLAH THERE WAS NOT THE > COUNTRY OF ISRAEL.BUT IN THE LETTER OF UHJ IT IS REFERRED TO THE RESIDENTS, > AND NATIONALS OF ISRAEL AND ITS AIR BORDER... > WARMEST GREETINGS/ROHANI > > > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Susan Maneck <sman...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > From: Susan Maneck <sman...@gmail.com> > > > Subject: Re: illegality of Bahai organizational activities in Iran > > To: shahramroh...@yahoo.com > > Cc: "Baha'i Studies" <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > > Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 5:52 PM > > > > IT SEEMS THAT YR WORDS ARE FULL OF ANGER TOWARD THE > > IRAN STATE AND THE > > > BAHAIS LIKE ME WHO TRY TO FIND A MIDDLE WAY TO GET OUT > > OF THE CURRENT > > > CRISIS,ACCORDING TO THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF FAITH. > > > > Dear Shahram, > > > > Are you trying to tell us you are a Baha'i? Do you > > believe that > > Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this > > Age? > > > > My anger is not towards the Iranian State it is towards > > anyone who > > tries to justify genocide. > > > > > -I KNOW THAT THE LIMITATION OF TEACHING BAHAI TO THE > > ISRAEALITES AND IN > > > ISRAEL WAS HELD AFTER THE MEETING BETWEEN THE > > REPRESENTATIVES OF > > > THE GUARDIAN AND THE NEW STATE OF ISRAEL.DO U WANT TO > > IGNORE IT? > > > > I've not seen any evidence of this. If you have some, > > please feel free > > to post it here. As I indicated the decision not to teach > > the Faith in > > Palestine was made by Baha'u'llah, not Shoghi > > Effendi and proceeds the > > establishment of the State of Israel. > > > > > ACCORDING TO IRAN CONSTITUTION PEOPLE ARE FREE TO HAVE > > ANY RELIGION. > > > BUT THEY ARE NOT FREE TO DISCUSS ABOUT THEIR RELIGIONS > > > > Then how about telling us which Baha'i community you > > belong to since > > if what you say is true, you needn't worry that this > > will put you in > > any danger. > > > > But I would like to see specifically where Iranian law > > prohibits > > people from discussing their religion. I know this is what > > Hojjatol-Islam Dur-Najafabadi is saying but I would like to > > see the > > actual law which says people are not free to discuss their > > religion. > > As Abolhassan Banisadr, Iran's first president, says, > > "When having any > > belief is free, how can expressing it be prohibited by > > law?" > > > > SPECIALLY IN > > > UNIVERSITIES,SCHOOLS,GOVERNMENTAL/PUBLIC PLACES,AS IT > > WILL CAUSE > > > DISORDER IN THE DAILY AFFAIRS > > > > First off, Baha'is are not even allowed to *attend* > > universities in > > Iran, whether they discuss their religion there or not. Not > > only that, > > but they are prohibited from holding government jobs, so > > how does this > > even come up? > > > > .IN MANY MANY CASES WHEN THE CONSTITUTION > > > TALKS ABOUT THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS,IT CONTINUES THAT > > DETAILS WILL APPEAR IN > > > COMING RULES AND LAWS. > > > > Again, it would help if you would quote what your > > constitution says > > directly here. But are you saying that subsequent laws can > > abrogate > > the Constitution itself? In any case, if subsequent laws > > have been > > made, please provide them. All I have seen are decrees > > issued by the > > 'ulama, not laws made by the state. Or are you saying > > that any 'alim > > can overturn the laws? > > > > > > > > -THE NATIONAL MEMORY OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE-WE ACCEPT > > IT OR NOT-- REMINDS > > > BABI AND BAHAI MOVEMENTS WITH BLOODSHED,TERROR,ARSON, > > > TREACHEROUS ACTS,ETC.MOST OF THEM CAN NOT TOLERATE > > BAHAIS, > > > > If you are really a Baha'i yourself as you have stated, > > you would know > > that Baha'is have committed *no* acts of bloodshed, > > terrorism, arson, > > etc. within Iran. Yes, there were some Babis who shared the > > same > > attitude towards jihad as Muslims have, but > > Baha'u'llah prohibited > > this entirely. > > > > I think the real reason that most Iranians cannot accept > > Baha'is is > > because the 'ulama have spread so many false stories > > about us, that > > now even those Iranians who are not particularly religious > > believe > > them. I discuss these at my website here: > > > > http://bahai-islam.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html > > > > > > > -THE JUDICIAL POWER OF IRAN ONCE IN 1983 PROHIBITED > > ANY ORGANISATIONAL > > > AND TEACHING ACTIVITIES OF THE BAHAIS.IT WAS VERY > > CLEAR.AFTER A WHILE STOP > > > > There was a decree issued in 1983 that indicated that > > Baha'is were > > free to practice their religion so long as we didn't > > have an > > organization. The result was we disbanded the National > > Spiritual > > Assembly. But the persecution did not stop. Baha'is > > were still barred > > from attending universities, their pensions were > > expropriated and > > their property confiscated. > > > > BUT WHEN THEY TREE TO ENTER SOME ACTS WHICH ARE POLITICAL > > > AND IN LINE WITH THE OPPOSING COUNTRIES OF IRAN,THEY > > ARE PRESSED BY IRAN > > > > Except Baha'is have no involvement in politics > > whatsoever. If you were > > a Baha'i you would surely know this. Nor are we allied > > with any other > > national government. Besides, Iran is not at war with > > anyone right > > now. Israel and the US are doing a lot of saber-rattling > > about the > > nuclear power plant, but Baha'is have expressed no > > opinion on this > > issue whatsoever. > > > > > WE KNOW THAT MOST OF THE BAHAIS KILLED BY IRAN REV > > STATE,WERE CORRUPTED[LIKE > > > MANY MUSLIM ONES] > > .BUT THE UHJ ,IN ACCORDANCE TO A PLAN,ATTACKED THE IRAN > > > GOVERNMENT IN THOSE YEARS. > > > > Are you seriously trying to tell us that those teenaged > > girls who were > > hung in Shiraz for teaching children's classes were > > corrupt? How so? > > Or are you talking about the man who was stoned recently by > > the > > government who apparently came from a Baha'i family. > > Because the > > Universal House of Justice has said nothing about this > > latter case > > because we don't consider him a Baha'i. It seems > > strange that he > > could be found guilty of incest as the newspaper reported > > however, > > given the fact that for the last several years he had been > > imprisoned > > on drug charges. Do they allow daughters to get that close > > to > > prisoners in Iran? > > > > warmest, Susan > > > > __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-418771-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
