Thanks for the words. But, I think my days are numbered here. Gerald
On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 6:17 PM, William Hermans <yyrk...@gmail.com> wrote: > So, we bit our lip * > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:16 PM, William Hermans <yyrk...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> @Gerald >> >> Actually, my buddy and I would have bought the white, if that's all that >> was available. So, much to our surprise when the beaglebone black was >> announced . . . we immediately jumped on the pre-order list for two boards >> . . . >> >> Would we have prefered you did one thing, or another slightly differently >> ? Sure ! But as it is, you saved us 50% right away, by doing what you did >> with the BBB versus the BBW. So . . . we nite our lip. Then implement what >> we have to on the side to make the BBB work for our own application. Too >> bad many youngsters would prefer to complain about what the board *ISNT* >> versus what the board *IS*. >> >> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:09 PM, William Hermans <yyrk...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> When you design low cost hardware, you have to make certain decisions to >>>> get the cost down. >>>> >>>> 1) As few components as possible. >>>> 2) Limit the application. Only one application, >>>> 3) Push as much cost outside, for example the power supply. >>>> 4) Lowest cost components. >>>> 5) Limit the features. >>>> 6) Cut the profit. >>>> >>>> Yes, there are several things I could have done different. Many of >>>> these no one has even identified. But if I had, you would not have bought >>>> it because it cost too much. After all hardware is supposed to be cheap. >>>> That is where the value is, in the price. Not the value.. >>>> >>>> Nobody asked how I took it from $89 to $49. They just bought them up >>>> and complained that it didn't do all the things they wanted it to do for >>>> $49. >>>> >>>> If anyone of you want to change the design, add more features, make it >>>> more robust, add more cost, increase the price, manufacture it and sell it, >>>> by all means, go ahead. I am sure there will b a few folks that value the >>>> hardware and recognize that value, and will pay for it. >>>> >>>> But, I suspect the majority will complain that it is too expensive and >>>> will stay with the BBB and instead ask how to flash the latest image in the >>>> BBB and why does my my GPIO does not work.. >>>> >>> >>> Exactly, or close enough to what I was getting at. So Instead of me >>> saying: "Pay no attention to John, as he tends to pontificate on others >>> comments, and has no idea what the hell he is talking about." Let me just >>> say that I figured Gerald had the sole purpose of designing this board to >>> work "good enough" while remaining within a specified price range. e.g. it >>> works, and it's cheap. >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Gerald Coley <ger...@beagleboard.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> When you design low cost hardware, you have to make certain decisions >>>> to get the cost down. >>>> >>>> 1) As few components as possible. >>>> 2) Limit the application. Only one application, >>>> 3) Push as much cost outside, for example the power supply. >>>> 4) Lowest cost components. >>>> 5) Limit the features. >>>> 6) Cut the profit. >>>> >>>> Yes, there are several things I could have done different. Many of >>>> these no one has even identified. But if I had, you would not have bought >>>> it because it cost too much. After all hardware is supposed to be cheap. >>>> That is where the value is, in the price. Not the value.. >>>> >>>> Nobody asked how I took it from $89 to $49. They just bought them up >>>> and complained that it didn't do all the things they wanted it to do for >>>> $49. >>>> >>>> If anyone of you want to change the design, add more features, make it >>>> more robust, add more cost, increase the price, manufacture it and sell it, >>>> by all means, go ahead. I am sure there will b a few folks that value the >>>> hardware and recognize that value, and will pay for it. >>>> >>>> But, I suspect the majority will complain that it is too expensive and >>>> will stay with the BBB and instead ask how to flash the latest image in the >>>> BBB and why does my my GPIO does not work.. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 5:46 PM, John Syne <john3...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Harvey, you raised several very good points. I cannot say I disagree >>>>> with anything you said. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On Jul 4, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Harvey White <ma...@dragonworks.info> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 15:13:00 -0700, you wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Pay no attention to William. You comments are welcome and Gerald >>>>> has accepted your comments as valuable input by thanking your for your >>>>> feedback. Now, let me address your concerns: >>>>> > >>>>> > From my own engineering standpoint (and opinions will, of course, >>>>> > vary): >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 1) The power supply used to power the BBB should be selected so >>>>> that it does not damage the BBB, so a 2A power supply was specified. If >>>>> you >>>>> wish to change that specification, then the onus is on you to verify that >>>>> a >>>>> 4A power supply will not damage the BBB. Your conclusion that is may >>>>> damage >>>>> the BBB means that you should not use a 4A power supply. In addition, a >>>>> power supply that is spec’d at 4A should not shutdown when it sees a 4A >>>>> load, but rather, it should current limit at 4A. If the power supply is >>>>> spec’d at 4A, then 4A should not be treated as a short circuit. >>>>> > >>>>> > I would have designed the power supply circuitry so that with a power >>>>> > supply of appropriate minimum rating, the maximum rating would not >>>>> > have mattered. Using a power supply with a maximum current rating to >>>>> > avoid damaging circuitry is not (again, IMHO) the best solution. If, >>>>> > because of economic considerations, that decision is made, then it is >>>>> > imperative of the designer to put this information specifically in >>>>> the >>>>> > power supply recommendations. Not doing this leads to damage, doing >>>>> > this puts the responsibility on the user. Is this a "before the >>>>> > design/after the design"? I don't know, and I don't remember (either >>>>> > way) if this warning was ever in the power supply requirements. >>>>> > Hindsight is 20/20, of course. If it's that important, then perhaps >>>>> > the documentation needs to be changed. Decision not up to me. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >> 2) The TI spec for the TPS65217C is a general recommendation as >>>>> they are unaware of how you are going to use the part. The BBB SYS_5V >>>>> powers several subsystems, including HDMI, I/O (VDD_3V3B) and USB. Clearly >>>>> you could move the 100uF to the other side of the TPS2051, but then you >>>>> need an additional capacitor on the SYS_5V which increases the cost and >>>>> doesn’t provide any clear benefit, if you choose the correct power supply. >>>>> > >>>>> > "correct power supply" bothers me. I'm familiar with minimum current >>>>> > capacity, voltage limits, short circuit current limits (infrequently >>>>> > applied). Again, "a 4 amp power supply will allow the board to >>>>> damage >>>>> > itself, so we depend on a 2 amp maximum supply to avoid damage." >>>>> This >>>>> > could be discussed a bit.... >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >> 3) As Gerald has pointed out, the BBB is just a reference design. >>>>> It was designed as a low cost solution which meant that tradeoffs were >>>>> required to keep the price low. Clearly things could have been done >>>>> differently, but then the BBB price would have been much higher and the >>>>> board larger. Given that most users would probably not need these extra >>>>> features, they were not incorporated into the current design. There are >>>>> several spinoffs of the BBB, some with wifi, some with more RAM, etc, but >>>>> none have been as successful as the BBB. >>>>> > >>>>> > Hmmm, well, perhaps (although not required) it might be nice to know >>>>> > what the engineering limitations are of the design. >>>>> > >>>>> > I've seen 1) the ones I know about, and 2) the ones I haven't found >>>>> > out yet... and 3) the ones people are going to have to tell me >>>>> > about... >>>>> > >>>>> > and I do like paranoid designs..... >>>>> > >>>>> > Harvey >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >> 4) While I have provided Gerald input into both the BBB and >>>>> BeagleBoard-x15 designs, I ultimately defer to his judgement because he >>>>> has >>>>> the track record or having designed several products that are very >>>>> successful. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> From my prospective, the BBB design is good, but your input was >>>>> none the less valuable. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Regards, >>>>> >> John >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> On Jul 4, 2016, at 2:11 PM, William Hermans <yyrk...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> kzsoltkzsolt, >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I would like to point out to you that you're talking to *the* >>>>> person who designed the beaglebones, who also used to work for Texas >>>>> Instruments at some point in his career. Someone who has made his designs >>>>> free of charge to the public, which he has made perfectly clear to you in >>>>> these post that you're free to change and use for your own personal use. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> So, telling him things, he probably already knows, in hopes of >>>>> making yourself looks good. Actually make you look like a "know it all". >>>>> e.g. it doesn't make you look good. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> SO perhaps you should realize that Gerald is probably well aware >>>>> of what you're trying to discuss here, but is unwilling to change for >>>>> various reasons. Reason, that you, I, or the next person do not need to >>>>> understand. Because we can change to designs to our own liking if we so >>>>> wish. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Gerald Coley < >>>>> ger...@beagleboard.org <mailto:ger...@beagleboard.org>> wrote: >>>>> >>> Thank you for your feedback. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Gerald >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 3:18 PM, <kzsoltkzs...@gmail.com <mailto: >>>>> kzsoltkzs...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>> First of all making changes on design "tomorrow" is irresponsible, >>>>> so I never request it. But good to know where is some "leak" in design. >>>>> For >>>>> example it is help to make workaround. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> "TI did not write that specification" >>>>> >>> No, but use it in all reference design. See TI TPS20x1 PDS >>>>> application information. See for example TPS2051 docu Fig 33. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> "If you put the CAP after the switch then ..." >>>>> >>> Then why CAP placed OUT of PDS in all TI application information? >>>>> >>> Because PDS has soft start feature which prevent overload IN (BBB >>>>> SYS power rail). See for example TPS2051 docu Fig 4 and 8. >>>>> >>> Fig 8 is perfect draw for this. The soft start feature limit >>>>> charge of 100uF to 0,5A, therefore current never exceed USB1 and 2 current >>>>> limit, therefore no dip on IN. >>>>> >>> This is one main function of PDS. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> "I did not design the board for your application" >>>>> >>> It is not required. But during research work to specify our >>>>> problem I found many topic where users discover mysterious problems with >>>>> power supply, and try to found a right one for BBB. This can be originated >>>>> from startup current peak. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >>>>> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >>>>> >>> --- >>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto: >>>>> beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/b974f98a-0cff-4380-af1f-9ce5db9e199f%40googlegroups.com >>>>> < >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/b974f98a-0cff-4380-af1f-9ce5db9e199f%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>>>> >. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> Gerald >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> ger...@beagleboard.org <mailto:ger...@beagleboard.org> >>>>> >>> http://beagleboard.org/ <http://beagleboard.org/> >>>>> >>> gcol...@emprodesign.com <mailto:gcol...@emprodesign.com> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >>>>> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >>>>> >>> --- >>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto: >>>>> beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcAH_U%3DVtJmLq62wrVPmRg8%2Bn27YjWM_oeorZezSTKorQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> < >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcAH_U%3DVtJmLq62wrVPmRg8%2Bn27YjWM_oeorZezSTKorQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>>>> >. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >>>>> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >>>>> >>> --- >>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto: >>>>> beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORo-TL2x_vUEni%2B-daiSEQXxLUU_N5p%2BEh%2Bt6tzpuuPT0g%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> < >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORo-TL2x_vUEni%2B-daiSEQXxLUU_N5p%2BEh%2Bt6tzpuuPT0g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>>>> >. >>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >>>>> > --- >>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/cjolnb1s1bddugkd1v6c4jeqm1a0mhmvhh%404ax.com >>>>> . >>>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/70E6C922-DEB1-451D-A72C-AC4C2EA2DF06%40gmail.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gerald >>>> >>>> ger...@beagleboard.org >>>> http://beagleboard.org/ >>>> gcol...@emprodesign.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcSGF0gqB5yJ4EQdbYHMvS04cNOej%2B1Bw8L5y7W6AnH4A%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcSGF0gqB5yJ4EQdbYHMvS04cNOej%2B1Bw8L5y7W6AnH4A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >> > -- > For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BeagleBoard" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORoMZ3MGFWPsXdhmAXPy-6xFbDT1cGTsY5wTEX4NACF3iA%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORoMZ3MGFWPsXdhmAXPy-6xFbDT1cGTsY5wTEX4NACF3iA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Gerald ger...@beagleboard.org http://beagleboard.org/ gcol...@emprodesign.com -- For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BeagleBoard" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcOQ1nxvBumLukA6fWSK%2BUOeY2_ehjWVTYoRTe0r-Tp%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
