And, of course, I'm sure John has something to say, about what I have to say. Good thing for me, and everyone else who reads these posts. that I have blocked his posts on this forum. Globally.
On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:41 PM, William Hermans <yyrk...@gmail.com> wrote: > HI Harvey, > > I'd personally disagree. Hardware costs as much as you pay for, and > does what you design it to do. I, for one, am willing to pay more for > more capability, within reason. Not your typical consumer, > though..... > > Id disagree with you. Only because we can second guess each other until > the end of time. But the point here that this was part of the reasoning for > the design behind the BBB, and without it we would not be where we are. > > I'm not even aware that your initial design was 89 dollars. I might > not have bought it for that, but that would have been my decision. "I" > however, am not "they".... but there are a lot more of "them" than > there are of me.... > > > The initial design discussed here is the BBW I believe. By the time my > biddy and I priced the BBW actually, the cost was $99. > > > If I needed something with that capability, I'd probably buy it >> because my cost preference on a PC board is 2 layers and not 4 or 6. I >> don't have the money to develop a product at this level, nor do I have >> the desire, nor perhaps the time or expertise. >> >> The cost would, of course, determine how many I'd use, and for what, >> but that's a simple economic decision. Then there's the engineering >> decision. >> > > Problem is, if this design was only a 2 layer design. the actual board > dimensions probably would have increased 5x or more. > > >But, I suspect the majority will complain that it is too expensive and > will > >stay with the BBB and instead ask how to flash the latest image in the BBB > >and why does my my GPIO does not work.. > > Can't help you with that... > > > If you want my take on this situation . . . it's because the I.Q. of the > average person posting on theses forums seems to have diminished in the > last couple of years. These people can not understand that the software > people on this project are not paid and offer their service for free to the > community. As well as software upgrades are not the responsibility of the > community, nor are these upgrade required for the software that third > parties have written to work properly. Nor, do these third parties take > responsibility for doing so . . . I could go on all day . . . > > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Harvey White <ma...@dragonworks.info> > wrote: > >> On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 18:02:13 -0500, you wrote: >> >> >When you design low cost hardware, you have to make certain decisions to >> >get the cost down. >> > >> >1) As few components as possible. >> granted, no problem with that. >> >> >2) Limit the application. Only one application, >> do we know what the application is? Apparently people tend to think >> that this can do anything. >> >3) Push as much cost outside, for example the power supply. >> hmmm, then that says you have not as much control over the power >> supply as you might want. Certainly not as much as you may like. >> >> >4) Lowest cost components. >> no problem. >> >5) Limit the features. >> no problem. It does what it does. >> >> >6) Cut the profit. >> diminishing returns. >> > >> >Yes, there are several things I could have done different. Many of these >> no >> >one has even identified. >> Perhaps it might be interesting to know what they were... Not >> criticizing, but to know design alternatives might be nice. >> >> >But if I had, you would not have bought it because >> >it cost too much. After all hardware is supposed to be cheap. >> >> I'd personally disagree. Hardware costs as much as you pay for, and >> does what you design it to do. I, for one, am willing to pay more for >> more capability, within reason. Not your typical consumer, >> though..... >> >> >> >That is where >> >the value is, in the price. Not the value.. >> >> Then you're designing to a price point, and that's a different thing >> entirely. >> >> > >> >Nobody asked how I took it from $89 to $49. They just bought them up and >> >complained that it didn't do all the things they wanted it to do for $49. >> >> I'm not even aware that your initial design was 89 dollars. I might >> not have bought it for that, but that would have been my decision. "I" >> however, am not "they".... but there are a lot more of "them" than >> there are of me.... >> >> Not practical for you to put too many blank pads on a board and expect >> the user to solder parts in. I do, because I can build the boards. >> Your average hobby type... not likely I suspect. >> >> > >> >If anyone of you want to change the design, add more features, make it >> more >> >robust, add more cost, increase the price, manufacture it and sell it, by >> >all means, go ahead. I am sure there will b a few folks that value the >> >hardware and recognize that value, and will pay for it. >> >> If I needed something with that capability, I'd probably buy it >> because my cost preference on a PC board is 2 layers and not 4 or 6. I >> don't have the money to develop a product at this level, nor do I have >> the desire, nor perhaps the time or expertise. >> >> The cost would, of course, determine how many I'd use, and for what, >> but that's a simple economic decision. Then there's the engineering >> decision. >> >> >> >> > >> >But, I suspect the majority will complain that it is too expensive and >> will >> >stay with the BBB and instead ask how to flash the latest image in the >> BBB >> >and why does my my GPIO does not work.. >> >> Can't help you with that.... >> >> >> Harvey >> >> > >> > >> >On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 5:46 PM, John Syne <john3...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Harvey, you raised several very good points. I cannot say I disagree >> with >> >> anything you said. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jul 4, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Harvey White <ma...@dragonworks.info> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 15:13:00 -0700, you wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Pay no attention to William. You comments are welcome and Gerald has >> >> accepted your comments as valuable input by thanking your for your >> >> feedback. Now, let me address your concerns: >> >> > >> >> > From my own engineering standpoint (and opinions will, of course, >> >> > vary): >> >> >> >> >> >> 1) The power supply used to power the BBB should be selected so >> that it >> >> does not damage the BBB, so a 2A power supply was specified. If you >> wish to >> >> change that specification, then the onus is on you to verify that a 4A >> >> power supply will not damage the BBB. Your conclusion that is may >> damage >> >> the BBB means that you should not use a 4A power supply. In addition, a >> >> power supply that is spec’d at 4A should not shutdown when it sees a 4A >> >> load, but rather, it should current limit at 4A. If the power supply is >> >> spec’d at 4A, then 4A should not be treated as a short circuit. >> >> > >> >> > I would have designed the power supply circuitry so that with a power >> >> > supply of appropriate minimum rating, the maximum rating would not >> >> > have mattered. Using a power supply with a maximum current rating to >> >> > avoid damaging circuitry is not (again, IMHO) the best solution. If, >> >> > because of economic considerations, that decision is made, then it is >> >> > imperative of the designer to put this information specifically in >> the >> >> > power supply recommendations. Not doing this leads to damage, doing >> >> > this puts the responsibility on the user. Is this a "before the >> >> > design/after the design"? I don't know, and I don't remember (either >> >> > way) if this warning was ever in the power supply requirements. >> >> > Hindsight is 20/20, of course. If it's that important, then perhaps >> >> > the documentation needs to be changed. Decision not up to me. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> 2) The TI spec for the TPS65217C is a general recommendation as they >> >> are unaware of how you are going to use the part. The BBB SYS_5V powers >> >> several subsystems, including HDMI, I/O (VDD_3V3B) and USB. Clearly you >> >> could move the 100uF to the other side of the TPS2051, but then you >> need an >> >> additional capacitor on the SYS_5V which increases the cost and doesn’t >> >> provide any clear benefit, if you choose the correct power supply. >> >> > >> >> > "correct power supply" bothers me. I'm familiar with minimum current >> >> > capacity, voltage limits, short circuit current limits (infrequently >> >> > applied). Again, "a 4 amp power supply will allow the board to >> damage >> >> > itself, so we depend on a 2 amp maximum supply to avoid damage." >> This >> >> > could be discussed a bit.... >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> 3) As Gerald has pointed out, the BBB is just a reference design. It >> >> was designed as a low cost solution which meant that tradeoffs were >> >> required to keep the price low. Clearly things could have been done >> >> differently, but then the BBB price would have been much higher and the >> >> board larger. Given that most users would probably not need these extra >> >> features, they were not incorporated into the current design. There are >> >> several spinoffs of the BBB, some with wifi, some with more RAM, etc, >> but >> >> none have been as successful as the BBB. >> >> > >> >> > Hmmm, well, perhaps (although not required) it might be nice to know >> >> > what the engineering limitations are of the design. >> >> > >> >> > I've seen 1) the ones I know about, and 2) the ones I haven't found >> >> > out yet... and 3) the ones people are going to have to tell me >> >> > about... >> >> > >> >> > and I do like paranoid designs..... >> >> > >> >> > Harvey >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> 4) While I have provided Gerald input into both the BBB and >> >> BeagleBoard-x15 designs, I ultimately defer to his judgement because >> he has >> >> the track record or having designed several products that are very >> >> successful. >> >> >> >> >> >> From my prospective, the BBB design is good, but your input was none >> >> the less valuable. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 4, 2016, at 2:11 PM, William Hermans <yyrk...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> kzsoltkzsolt, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I would like to point out to you that you're talking to *the* >> person >> >> who designed the beaglebones, who also used to work for Texas >> Instruments >> >> at some point in his career. Someone who has made his designs free of >> >> charge to the public, which he has made perfectly clear to you in these >> >> post that you're free to change and use for your own personal use. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> So, telling him things, he probably already knows, in hopes of >> making >> >> yourself looks good. Actually make you look like a "know it all". e.g. >> it >> >> doesn't make you look good. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> SO perhaps you should realize that Gerald is probably well aware of >> >> what you're trying to discuss here, but is unwilling to change for >> various >> >> reasons. Reason, that you, I, or the next person do not need to >> understand. >> >> Because we can change to designs to our own liking if we so wish. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Gerald Coley < >> ger...@beagleboard.org >> >> <mailto:ger...@beagleboard.org>> wrote: >> >> >>> Thank you for your feedback. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Gerald >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 3:18 PM, <kzsoltkzs...@gmail.com <mailto: >> >> kzsoltkzs...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >>> First of all making changes on design "tomorrow" is irresponsible, >> so >> >> I never request it. But good to know where is some "leak" in design. >> For >> >> example it is help to make workaround. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> "TI did not write that specification" >> >> >>> No, but use it in all reference design. See TI TPS20x1 PDS >> application >> >> information. See for example TPS2051 docu Fig 33. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> "If you put the CAP after the switch then ..." >> >> >>> Then why CAP placed OUT of PDS in all TI application information? >> >> >>> Because PDS has soft start feature which prevent overload IN (BBB >> SYS >> >> power rail). See for example TPS2051 docu Fig 4 and 8. >> >> >>> Fig 8 is perfect draw for this. The soft start feature limit >> charge of >> >> 100uF to 0,5A, therefore current never exceed USB1 and 2 current limit, >> >> therefore no dip on IN. >> >> >>> This is one main function of PDS. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> "I did not design the board for your application" >> >> >>> It is not required. But during research work to specify our >> problem I >> >> found many topic where users discover mysterious problems with power >> >> supply, and try to found a right one for BBB. This can be originated >> from >> >> startup current peak. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >> >> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >> >> >>> --- >> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto: >> >> beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> >> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/b974f98a-0cff-4380-af1f-9ce5db9e199f%40googlegroups.com >> >> < >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/b974f98a-0cff-4380-af1f-9ce5db9e199f%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >> >> >. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> Gerald >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ger...@beagleboard.org <mailto:ger...@beagleboard.org> >> >> >>> http://beagleboard.org/ <http://beagleboard.org/> >> >> >>> gcol...@emprodesign.com <mailto:gcol...@emprodesign.com> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >> >> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >> >> >>> --- >> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto: >> >> beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> >> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcAH_U%3DVtJmLq62wrVPmRg8%2Bn27YjWM_oeorZezSTKorQ%40mail.gmail.com >> >> < >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcAH_U%3DVtJmLq62wrVPmRg8%2Bn27YjWM_oeorZezSTKorQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >> >> >. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >> >> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >> >> >>> --- >> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto: >> >> beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> >> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORo-TL2x_vUEni%2B-daiSEQXxLUU_N5p%2BEh%2Bt6tzpuuPT0g%40mail.gmail.com >> >> < >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORo-TL2x_vUEni%2B-daiSEQXxLUU_N5p%2BEh%2Bt6tzpuuPT0g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >> >> >. >> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >> >> > --- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> an email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/cjolnb1s1bddugkd1v6c4jeqm1a0mhmvhh%404ax.com >> >> . >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >> >> --- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> >> "BeagleBoard" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an >> >> email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/70E6C922-DEB1-451D-A72C-AC4C2EA2DF06%40gmail.com >> >> . >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Gerald >> > >> >ger...@beagleboard.org >> >http://beagleboard.org/ >> >gcol...@emprodesign.com >> >> -- >> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BeagleBoard" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to beagleboard+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/rarlnbptmkkr2fs2hjqudj543mckujfv0r%404ax.com >> . >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BeagleBoard" group. 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