> I didn't "define Christians" in general by the neighbor experience, but what some would refer to by terms like "Moral Majority born-again fundamentalist" etc. in other words, the "sect" or "denomination" of Christianity epitomized in the media by the televangelists mentioned.
You're right. You didn't define Christians based on the sum of YOUR experiences but with one experience (or maybe even several), and the ones epitomized in the media. That's my point. How many people are being honest in their overall assessment of Christians based on THEIR experiences, but based on what they see on TV and in the media? Based solely on your experiences, you would probably think that Christians aren't all that bad. But you decided that it was important for you to come out of lurk to relay that story when, by your own admission, wasn't even indicative of how you view Christians as a group. Catholicism is a form of Christianity, so whether you intend to lump us in with the fundamentalists, you do. I'm sure there are different "forms" of Judaism that you may not be too fond or proud of, would you want to be lumped in with them too? Probably not. But then again, I'm not a minority so I don't get it right Beth? Michael Corrigan Programmer Endora Digital Solutions 1900 S. Highland Avenue, Suite 200 Lombard, IL 60148 630/627-5200 x-136 630/627-5255 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Braver, Ben To: CF-Community Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: RE: Church and State Michael, I'm sorry if this wasn't clear in my post. I didn't "define Christians" in general by the neighbor experience, but what some would refer to by terms like "Moral Majority born-again fundamentalist" etc. in other words, the "sect" or "denomination" of Christianity epitomized in the media by the televangelists mentioned. I have no problem with the "mainstream moderate" folk like "civilian" Protestants and Catholics. In fact, I've had some delightful discussions with many of them where we found many similarities as well as differences in our views, and enjoyed learning from each other. By "Christians" I meant the narrower definition, since a Lutheran or a Methodist or a Catholic tends to label him/her self with that term, but the fundamentalists tend to simply call themselves Christians. Sorry for any confusion, hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. -Ben -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:38 AM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: Church and State I've had other Christian denominations tell me that I was going to burn in hell too. Fortunately for me I can see them for what they are. I cannot comment on what Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, or the thousand other Christian denominations preach. I was commenting on my experiences as a Catholic and what the Catholic church teaches. The Catholic church does not teach people to be intolerant of others, but to embrace them. Not to convert them but to live peacefully side by side together. What is unfortunate is that you can't see past that. You would rather use that experience to define Christians rather than the possibly thousands of other positive experiences that you may have had with other Christians. I'll bet that if you really think about it, you know more Christians who are good, honest, and respectful people than you know that are indicative of the one that you highlighted in your e-mail. And not related to your response Ben or directed at you but as a general comment; just because someone is religious (regardless of Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist, Judaism, et al) does not automatically make them nice people or that they do good things. Also, because that person belongs to a certain religion doesn't mean that that religion teaches things that are reflective of that persons actions. Since Sept. 11th, we as a country have made a concerted effort for those, not only in our country but those outside that we don't equate Islam with the Taliban or the terrorists. They are, in essence, mutually exclusive. That same way of thinking can be extended to other religions as well. Michael Corrigan Programmer Endora Digital Solutions 1900 S. Highland Avenue, Suite 200 Lombard, IL 60148 630/627-5200 x-136 630/627-5255 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Braver, Ben To: CF-Community Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 12:48 PM Subject: RE: Church and State Michael, I've been lurking on this thread, but I have to respond to something you said: I have not only been proselytized by Christians, but I actually had a next-door neighbor who knew very well that I was Jewish tell me that I was going to burn in Hell because I didn't accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and personal Savior. I replied to her that I pitied her for her intolerance, not recognizing that I read the Bible and pray to God. Also about her forgetting that Jesus was born, lived, and died a Jew. The Last Supper was a Passover Seder. I have never EVER had someone of another (non-Christian) faith thrust their beliefs at me and dare to tell me I'm damned because I don't share their belief structure. And yes I think it's the people like Robertson, Falwell, etc. who are proponents of this closed-minded, bigoted attitude. I am very VERY afraid of people like this getting power, because look what happens to our religious freedoms in this "Christian God-fearing country". -Ben -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:27 AM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: Church and State Nick, You're wasting your breath man. It's not about prayer in the classroom or even about religion in schools. She even said it herself, it is NOT about religion in school, it's about Christianity in schools. The debate is based on a dislike of Christianity. The dislike of Christianity stems from a dislike of people like Robertson and Falwell and the Christian fundamentalism that was fought in the 50's and 60's. They see them and the Crusades and say that Christianity is bad and lumps all Christians with them. It's disingenuous and close minded and not really worth the time. Michael Corrigan Programmer Endora Digital Solutions 1900 S. Highland Avenue, Suite 200 Lombard, IL 60148 630/627-5200 x-136 630/627-5255 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick McClure To: CF-Community Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Church and State No what is being said is that any group should be allowed to use a public building so long as it does not interfere with the purpose of that building, their intentions are legal, and there is enough space to accommodate them. >No, what is being said is that no one religion has the right to force their >presence on others in a forum funded by taxpayer money, i.e. by the >government. > >And again, you are mixing religion and Christianity, because no other >religion is demanding the right to pray or teach their dogma in public >schools. ______________________________________________________________________ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. 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