You might want to consider how quickly the implementation of APL/360 got out of the box from the first APL conference in 1969—it was widely used on an in-house mainframe at the insurance company where I worked by 1974—people could begin using it the same day they logged in. It spread all over the world including Russia despite Regan suspending Soviet-American trade and scientific exchange. Perhaps someone has an estimate of the users and clients of APL businesses such as IBM. IPSharp, STSC, Dyalog…
It seems to me despite the promise of an even more powerful language the uptake of J in the last 30 has been not so great—one might blame marketing but APL was not marketed so much as demanded. There is a different learning curve in part from the less relatable ascii characters instead of the elegant APL notation, in part the need to master a more complex composition.The language has extended well beyond primitives to include what might rather be a code library. Obviously it can be learned as attested by many members of this forum. > On Oct 6, 2021, at 6:07 AM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > > joseph turco writes: >> I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic exercise > (you can say, 'for fun') > > Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > > "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > rational argument is irrelevant. > Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > > Which to try first? Look at https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > to get a quick comparison of both. > Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > vice-versa. That tells you something. > > Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. One > makes money, the other doesn't. > > I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual Basic. The > choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more fun. > That tells you something too. > > The singer, not the song? > > How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal mining > town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > > APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never will. > But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most of my > discretionary time. That tells you something else. > > What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But coding > a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone who > starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that wasn't > Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I was. > > But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > > So… APL or J? Things to consider: > > [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the viola, > no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or the most > fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > > [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is elegant, > appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds because > of its trade connections. > > [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > > [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > (a) because it's fun? > (b) because it isn't? > > Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. When I > left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those arcane > languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid jobs. > > Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being too > harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, javascript, > Python…) > > When the fun stops: stop. > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, >> >> I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is not my >> intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an inexperienced >> programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array language >> purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know this is a >> J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any reason I >> should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using ASCII >> characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that wrong or >> if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not focusing on >> J and instead on APL? >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
