BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of
SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank,
etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at Dyalog.
They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g.,
verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience,
using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts,
because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable
with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator,
currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be
Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or
two,
including a pop quiz at the end.
Bob
On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote:
Hey all, thanks for the responses.
After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the
representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters.
I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones time.
regards,
Joseph Turco
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick <[email protected]> wrote:
If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you
want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice.
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining
entertaining.
Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will
continue to gain in status (and rarity).
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining
entertaining.
Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical
sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer
games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players
can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of
others -- often with better graphics)).
Food for thought?
--
Raul
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]>
wrote:
joseph turco writes:
I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic
exercise
(you can say, 'for fun')
Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun.
"Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that
rational argument is irrelevant.
Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun.
Which to try first? Look at
https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook
to get a quick comparison of both.
Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than
vice-versa. That tells you something.
Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't.
One
makes money, the other doesn't.
I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an
extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual
Basic.
The
choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more
fun.
That tells you something too.
The singer, not the song?
How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal
mining
town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it.
APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never
will.
But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most
of
my
discretionary time. That tells you something else.
What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint…
Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But
coding
a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone
who
starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that
wasn't
Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I
was.
But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…!
So… APL or J? Things to consider:
[1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the
viola,
no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or
the
most
fun – you'll end up playing the viola.
[2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is
elegant,
appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds
because
of its trade connections.
[3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a
"language" is a dialect with an army and a navy.
[4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica?
(a) because it's fun?
(b) because it isn't?
Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did.
When I
left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those
arcane
languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid
jobs.
Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being
too
harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB,
javascript,
Python…)
When the fun stops: stop.
On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco <[email protected]
wrote:
Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list,
I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is
not
my
intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an
inexperienced
programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array
language
purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know
this
is a
J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any
reason
I
should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using
ASCII
characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that
wrong or
if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not
focusing on
J and instead on APL?
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