Welcome back Joseph ;) If you want a low impact way to keep up with many of the array languages, the J/APL/BQN/K/Q/functional/combinatory comparison is something that occurs frequently on the Array Cast podcast that Adam Brudzewsky, Stephen Taylor, Conor Hoekstra and Richard Park and I produce. https://www.arraycast.com/episodes
Cheers and enjoy the journey, bob > On Oct 6, 2021, at 14:20, joseph turco <[email protected]> wrote: > > So I played around more with APL and I actually am not a big fan of how > variables and functions are managed. I prefer the way J does things with > the built-in editor. I guess its J for me! > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 3:04 PM joseph turco <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Thanks for the explanation robert, i see your an inhabitant of Ward's. i >> wave from my apartment here on the mainland. I do agree i that the >> conventions that J uses are more palatable than what the standard >> nomenclatures are for terms. After i learn APL, ill revisit J and see >> which one i enjoy more, for now i think it's APL. >> >> regards, >> >> Joseph Turco >> >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 2:25 PM Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of >>> SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank, >>> etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at >>> Dyalog. >>> >>> They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., >>> verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, >>> using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, >>> because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable >>> with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, >>> currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be >>> Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or >>> two, >>> including a pop quiz at the end. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: >>>> Hey all, thanks for the responses. >>>> >>>> After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the >>>> representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. >>>> I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones >>> time. >>>> >>>> regards, >>>> >>>> Joseph Turco >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you >>>>> want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining >>>>> entertaining. >>>>>> Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will >>>>>> continue to gain in status (and rarity). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining >>>>> entertaining. >>>>>>> Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical >>>>>>> sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer >>>>>>> games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players >>>>>>> can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of >>>>>>> others -- often with better graphics)). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Food for thought? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Raul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> joseph turco writes: >>>>>>>>> I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic >>>>>> exercise >>>>>>>> (you can say, 'for fun') >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that >>>>>>>> rational argument is irrelevant. >>>>>>>> Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Which to try first? Look at >>>>>>> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook >>>>>>>> to get a quick comparison of both. >>>>>>>> Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than >>>>>>>> vice-versa. That tells you something. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other >>> doesn't. >>>>>> One >>>>>>>> makes money, the other doesn't. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an >>>>>>>> extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual >>>>> Basic. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more >>>>> fun. >>>>>>>> That tells you something too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The singer, not the song? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal >>>>>>> mining >>>>>>>> town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never >>>>>> will. >>>>>>>> But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most >>>>> of >>>>>> my >>>>>>>> discretionary time. That tells you something else. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… >>>>>>>> Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But >>>>>>> coding >>>>>>>> a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone >>>>> who >>>>>>>> starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that >>>>>> wasn't >>>>>>>> Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I >>>>>> was. >>>>>>>> But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So… APL or J? Things to consider: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the >>>>>> viola, >>>>>>>> no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or >>>>> the >>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> fun – you'll end up playing the viola. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is >>>>>>> elegant, >>>>>>>> appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds >>>>>> because >>>>>>>> of its trade connections. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a >>>>>>>> "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? >>>>>>>> (a) because it's fun? >>>>>>>> (b) because it isn't? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. >>>>>> When I >>>>>>>> left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those >>>>> arcane >>>>>>>> languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid >>>>>> jobs. >>>>>>>> Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being >>>>> too >>>>>>>> harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, >>>>>>> javascript, >>>>>>>> Python…) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When the fun stops: stop. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco < >>> [email protected] >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is >>>>>> not >>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an >>>>>>> inexperienced >>>>>>>>> programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array >>>>>>> language >>>>>>>>> purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know >>>>> this >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>> J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any >>>>> reason >>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using >>>>>> ASCII >>>>>>>>> characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that >>>>>>> wrong or >>>>>>>>> if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not >>>>>>> focusing on >>>>>>>>> J and instead on APL? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> For information about J forums see >>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> For information about J forums see >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> For information about J forums see >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For information about J forums see >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Devon McCormick, CFA >>>>> >>>>> Quantitative Consultant >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >>> -- >>> Robert Bernecky >>> Snake Island Research Inc >>> 18 Fifth Street >>> Ward's Island >>> Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> tel: +1 416 203 0854 >>> text/cell: +1 416 996 4286 >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
