So I played around more with APL and I actually am not a big fan of how variables and functions are managed. I prefer the way J does things with the built-in editor. I guess its J for me!
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 3:04 PM joseph turco <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for the explanation robert, i see your an inhabitant of Ward's. i > wave from my apartment here on the mainland. I do agree i that the > conventions that J uses are more palatable than what the standard > nomenclatures are for terms. After i learn APL, ill revisit J and see > which one i enjoy more, for now i think it's APL. > > regards, > > Joseph Turco > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 2:25 PM Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of >> SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank, >> etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at >> Dyalog. >> >> They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., >> verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, >> using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, >> because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable >> with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, >> currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be >> Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or >> two, >> including a pop quiz at the end. >> >> Bob >> >> On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: >> > Hey all, thanks for the responses. >> > >> > After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the >> > representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. >> > I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones >> time. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > Joseph Turco >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> >> If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you >> >> want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining >> >> entertaining. >> >>> Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will >> >>> continue to gain in status (and rarity). >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining >> >> entertaining. >> >>>> Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical >> >>>> sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer >> >>>> games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players >> >>>> can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of >> >>>> others -- often with better graphics)). >> >>>> >> >>>> Food for thought? >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Raul >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >>>>> joseph turco writes: >> >>>>>> I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic >> >>> exercise >> >>>>> (you can say, 'for fun') >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that >> >>>>> rational argument is irrelevant. >> >>>>> Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Which to try first? Look at >> >>>> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook >> >>>>> to get a quick comparison of both. >> >>>>> Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than >> >>>>> vice-versa. That tells you something. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other >> doesn't. >> >>> One >> >>>>> makes money, the other doesn't. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an >> >>>>> extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual >> >> Basic. >> >>>> The >> >>>>> choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more >> >> fun. >> >>>>> That tells you something too. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The singer, not the song? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal >> >>>> mining >> >>>>> town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never >> >>> will. >> >>>>> But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most >> >> of >> >>> my >> >>>>> discretionary time. That tells you something else. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… >> >>>>> Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But >> >>>> coding >> >>>>> a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone >> >> who >> >>>>> starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that >> >>> wasn't >> >>>>> Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I >> >>> was. >> >>>>> But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! >> >>>>> >> >>>>> So… APL or J? Things to consider: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the >> >>> viola, >> >>>>> no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or >> >> the >> >>>> most >> >>>>> fun – you'll end up playing the viola. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is >> >>>> elegant, >> >>>>> appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds >> >>> because >> >>>>> of its trade connections. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a >> >>>>> "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? >> >>>>> (a) because it's fun? >> >>>>> (b) because it isn't? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. >> >>> When I >> >>>>> left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those >> >> arcane >> >>>>> languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid >> >>> jobs. >> >>>>> Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being >> >> too >> >>>>> harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, >> >>>> javascript, >> >>>>> Python…) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> When the fun stops: stop. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco < >> [email protected] >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is >> >>> not >> >>>> my >> >>>>>> intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an >> >>>> inexperienced >> >>>>>> programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array >> >>>> language >> >>>>>> purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know >> >> this >> >>>> is a >> >>>>>> J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any >> >> reason >> >>> I >> >>>>>> should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using >> >>> ASCII >> >>>>>> characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that >> >>>> wrong or >> >>>>>> if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not >> >>>> focusing on >> >>>>>> J and instead on APL? >> >>>>>> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>> For information about J forums see >> >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>> For information about J forums see >> >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Devon McCormick, CFA >> >> >> >> Quantitative Consultant >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> -- >> Robert Bernecky >> Snake Island Research Inc >> 18 Fifth Street >> Ward's Island >> Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 >> >> [email protected] >> tel: +1 416 203 0854 >> text/cell: +1 416 996 4286 >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
