Thanks for the explanation robert, i see your an inhabitant of Ward's. i wave from my apartment here on the mainland. I do agree i that the conventions that J uses are more palatable than what the standard nomenclatures are for terms. After i learn APL, ill revisit J and see which one i enjoy more, for now i think it's APL.
regards, Joseph Turco On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 2:25 PM Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> wrote: > BTW, over recent years, Dyalog APL has adopted some of the concepts of > SHARP APL and J, including forms of function composition, function rank, > etc. Roger Hui likely provided much of the impetus for that work at Dyalog. > > They have not yet adopted the SHARP APL/J terminology, e.g., > verbs, adverbs, nouns, and conjunctions. In my experience, > using Ken's terms greatly eases the languages and their concepts, > because learners, particularly those in the arts, are comfortable > with them, whereas terms such as higher-order function, operator, > currying, etc., scare these people away, because Programming Must Be > Really Hard. I can teach people array verbs and reduction in a minute or > two, > including a pop quiz at the end. > > Bob > > On 2021-10-06 2:06 p.m., joseph turco wrote: > > Hey all, thanks for the responses. > > > > After using J for a bit, i think i prefer using APL, i like the > > representation of the symbols more than the ASCII characters. > > I will keep J in mind after learning APL. Sorry if i wasted anyones time. > > > > regards, > > > > Joseph Turco > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 1:15 PM Devon McCormick <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> If language exploration is your purpose, I think J offers more. If you > >> want to develop a user-facing application, APL may be a better choice. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:17 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > >> entertaining. > >>> Perhaps I was too quick to disparage the occupation. I hope it will > >>> continue to gain in status (and rarity). > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 at 12:45, Raul Miller <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> For what it's worth, there are people who find coal mining > >> entertaining. > >>>> Both in a practical sense (actual coal miners), and in an impractical > >>>> sense (for example, computer gamers -- there's a variety of computer > >>>> games now which include "coal mining" as an activity that the players > >>>> can engage in (minecraft comes to mind here, but there's plenty of > >>>> others -- often with better graphics)). > >>>> > >>>> Food for thought? > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Raul > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 6:08 AM Ian Clark <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>>>> joseph turco writes: > >>>>>> I would like to learn an array language purely as an academic > >>> exercise > >>>>> (you can say, 'for fun') > >>>>> > >>>>> Lucky you. That's like learning coal mining for fun. > >>>>> > >>>>> "Fun" is an affective quality, not a cognitive one. It follows that > >>>>> rational argument is irrelevant. > >>>>> Try both on equal terms and decide which gives you the most fun. > >>>>> > >>>>> Which to try first? Look at > >>>> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/APL2JPhraseBook > >>>>> to get a quick comparison of both. > >>>>> Note: it was far easier describing APL succintly in terms of J than > >>>>> vice-versa. That tells you something. > >>>>> > >>>>> Equal terms? You can't of course. One costs money, the other doesn't. > >>> One > >>>>> makes money, the other doesn't. > >>>>> > >>>>> I spent most of my working life making a living from APL. It was an > >>>>> extremely good living: far better than coding in C/C++ or Visual > >> Basic. > >>>> The > >>>>> choice of employer was more limited, but they were invariably more > >> fun. > >>>>> That tells you something too. > >>>>> > >>>>> The singer, not the song? > >>>>> > >>>>> How did I fall into APL? For the same reason a young man from a coal > >>>> mining > >>>>> town falls into coal mining. "Fun" doesn't come into it. > >>>>> > >>>>> APL has made me a LOT of money. J hasn't made me a penny, and never > >>> will. > >>>>> But since retiring, I've hardly touched APL, and J now absorbs most > >> of > >>> my > >>>>> discretionary time. That tells you something else. > >>>>> > >>>>> What? I choose to keep my counsel on this forum. But here's a hint… > >>>>> Some people go exploring the Antarctic when they don't have to. But > >>>> coding > >>>>> a project in APL is like setting out on a long journey with someone > >> who > >>>>> starts off by deliberately shooting himself in the foot. No, that > >>> wasn't > >>>>> Ken's fault. I guess he developed J because he was as irritated as I > >>> was. > >>>>> But I can only guess. There are people on this forum who *know*…! > >>>>> > >>>>> So… APL or J? Things to consider: > >>>>> > >>>>> [1] If you're in an orchestra and you play both the violin and the > >>> viola, > >>>>> no matter which is your best instrument, or the one you prefer, or > >> the > >>>> most > >>>>> fun – you'll end up playing the viola. > >>>>> > >>>>> [2] English isn't one of the world's major languages because it is > >>>> elegant, > >>>>> appealing, logical or fun. It's none of these things. It succeeds > >>> because > >>>>> of its trade connections. > >>>>> > >>>>> [3] And which dialect of English? There's an old Yiddish saying: a > >>>>> "language" is a dialect with an army and a navy. > >>>>> > >>>>> [4] Why do king penguins flourish in Antarctica? > >>>>> (a) because it's fun? > >>>>> (b) because it isn't? > >>>>> > >>>>> Wild horses wouldn't have made me learn APL. A pushy employer did. > >>> When I > >>>>> left IBM in the mid 80s I viewed APL as just one (…10?) of those > >> arcane > >>>>> languages I've had to get by in. Then I found it offered well-paid > >>> jobs. > >>>>> Well, doctors don't get rich treating healthy people. But I'm being > >> too > >>>>> harsh on APL. There are far… FAR… worse languages. (C/C++, VB, > >>>> javascript, > >>>>> Python…) > >>>>> > >>>>> When the fun stops: stop. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 22:11, joseph turco <[email protected] > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> Hello, question moved here from programming to chat list, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am not trying to start a flame war, so please understand that is > >>> not > >>>> my > >>>>>> intentions. I am looking at either learning APL or J. I am an > >>>> inexperienced > >>>>>> programmer. My reasoning is that I would like to learn an array > >>>> language > >>>>>> purely as an academic exercise (you can say, 'for fun'). I know > >> this > >>>> is a > >>>>>> J forum, so i assume its going to be biased, but is there any > >> reason > >>> I > >>>>>> should learn J instead of APL, or vice versa? Aside from J using > >>> ASCII > >>>>>> characters instead of 'iverson notation' (excuse me if i got that > >>>> wrong or > >>>>>> if J also falls in that category), what am i losing out on not > >>>> focusing on > >>>>>> J and instead on APL? > >>>>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> For information about J forums see > >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> For information about J forums see > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Devon McCormick, CFA > >> > >> Quantitative Consultant > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > -- > Robert Bernecky > Snake Island Research Inc > 18 Fifth Street > Ward's Island > Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 > > [email protected] > tel: +1 416 203 0854 > text/cell: +1 416 996 4286 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
