As someone who has devoted a bit of time and more than a couple of dollars
pursuing certification, and as someone who has failed one lab attempt, and
as someone who collects good advice from CCIE's and others, I can no longer
resist opening my big mouth on this.
The CCIE Lab exam is a test. Nothing more. Nothing less. It has nothing to
do with good practice. It has nothing to do with real world.
Consider: Cisco wants you to be able to redistribute between any two
protocols. How do you test this, given the constraints of the lab?
Cisco wants you to understand routing protocol behaviour. How do you test
that? Do bizarre redistribution requirements and constraints provide just
such a means?
Cisco wants you to understand the implications of NMBA on Cisco routers. How
do you test that?
Cisco wants you to understand how OSPF works? How do you test that,
particularly in conjunction with NMBA?
Cisco wants you to understand how routing works. How do you test a
candidate's real understanding if you can fake your way through by using
static routes?
Cisco wants you to understand a number of alternative solutions to a number
of problems. So they create scenarios which require a number of alternatives
in order to complete correctly. Is this real world.? Is this good practice?
Any CCNA should be able to throw together a 10 router network over frame
relay, and get it to work. But who do you call when you have something out
of the ordinary you want to do? Suppose you have legacy protocols you want
to transition from? Suppose you are migrating from 3com to Cisco? Suppose
you are buying Cisco now, but in the past you bought 3com, Lucent, and
Nortel. And you don't want to spend the money to replace it all? Suppose you
acquire a company that runs RIPv1, and their address space overlaps your?
Who's gonna solve your problem?
The CCIE is not about passing a test. It is about becoming expert in routing
and networking. It is about learning how to learn. It is about
understanding, researching, thinking beyond the ordinary.
JMHO
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
Robert Padjen
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 11:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Is it really worth it? "CCIE" [7:5725]
Louie -
First congratulations. I think that, from what I know
of the lab, there is a greater disconnect between the
items on the lab and the real-world than your posting
would reflect. This is not to say that there is no
coorelation - rather it is thinner than some of us
would like. I'm embarrased when CCIEs can't explain
how to use the ARP and CAM tables to find a top
talker, or when they can't implement redundancy in
OSPF areas. The ones who can typically report that the
lab (and its prep) had little to do with their
knowledge in these areas. No exam can be everything,
and I agree completely that the CCIE is one of the
better ones, but I won't hire ANYONE because of the
letters after their name - CCIE included. It's
impressive, but only within the context of the
challenge of the exam.
--- Louie Belt wrote:
> I respectfully disagree with some of your
> assertions. The CCIE cert does
> demonstrate that you have an ability to troubleshoot
> a network, it also
> demonstrates your ability to build a complex network
> without leaving out the
> details. That's why the CCIE is different from
> almost any other cert. The
> lab goes past theory and forces practical
> application of that theory.
> Additionally, it forces you to demonstrate an
> ability to handle unknown
> scenarios in a timely manner and under extreme
> pressure.
>
> As for my opinion of whether it's worth it - I must
> say it absolutely is!!
>
> Louie Belt
> CCIE #7054
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Kane, Christopher A.
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 6:08 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Is it really worth it? "CCIE" [7:5725]
>
>
> I agree that a Cert is not necessarily who you are.
> I also agree that a Cert
> doesn't mean you can troubleshoot nor does it mean
> that you are capable of
> designing something that is clean and easily
> supportable. But, I feel the
> Cert does have a value. It shows that you took the
> time to learn what
> someone (presumably the vendor) suggested that you
> learn in order to better
> understand the capabilities of their product. It
> shows that you've made the
> effort to learn things that you don't normally deal
> with on a day-to-day
> basis. If you are willing to constantly learn and
> grow not only adds to your
> value as an employee, but also as a person.
>
> Further, for those of us who did not finish school,
> it hopefully keeps the
> recruiter from shutting the door in our face. I have
> had a great time in the
> 4 years that I have been in this field. I've
> received recognition from not
> only my peers and immediate management, but also
> from senior directors. I've
> gained vast amounts of experience, starting at the
> NOC level and working up
> through the higher levels of support and
> engineering. Experience along with
> the Cert/s, should allow me to at least talk to the
> IT group of a potential
> new employer so that I may demonstrate what I am
> capable of. I've seen
> things on this list that concern me. Such as HR
> personnel preferring to talk
> to a CCNA rather than a CCNP because they've been
> told to find the CCNA and
> are not aware of what a CCNP is. Until I can finish
> school, my chances of
> gaining new employment (should I seek it) could be
> greatly diminished
> without something else to show, such as the Cert.
>
> A degree doesn't guarantee that you are a quality
> employee, nor does a Cert.
> But I need all the ammo I can amass should the time
> come that I have to
> polish the resume and start knocking on doors. Maybe
> the CCIE does contain
> some outdated material and maybe it could use some
> tweaking, regardless, my
> major concern lies on the dependence of Cisco to
> help maintain that
> certification on the level of respect that it
> currently holds.
>
> Thanks for the thread, this is a great discussion. I
> enjoy hearing the
> opinions of other technicians/engineers.
>
> Christopher A. Kane, CCNP
> Senior Network Control Tech
> Router Ops Center/Hilliard NOC
> UUNET
> (614)723-7877
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Padjen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 6:01 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Is it really worth it? "CCIE" [7:5725]
>
>
> My $.02.
>
> I have always been disenchanted with the
> certifications offered and I would like to believe
> that some others in the industry feel the same. This
> may be the case here.
>
> Basically, look at the certification tests. Many are
> old, poorly written, irrelevant to production
> environments, simple (low percentage of redundancy
> or
> complex scenario questions) and an overall
> difficulty
> not related to technological issues but grammar,
> construct and marketing. As such, passing proves
> that
> you can do one thing - pass the test. It doesn't
> mean
> that you can troubleshoot, design, deploy or manage
> anything. Is Erlang-B important in routing and
> switching? Is knowing the port density on the Z
> series
> router valuable when the product was replaced two
> years ago?
>
> It's not sour grapes - I'm certified. But, its on
> the
> last page of my resume, and its not who I am. I'm
> me,
> and I happen to be certified. Its not I'm certified
> (along with X others) and I'm one of many.
>
> Also, I know a lot of people who will not disclose
> their certs, including CCIE, unless asked. It's
> being
> humble.
>
> I don't think that anyone is incapable of passing
> the
> X test/exam. Its a matter of time, money, pain and
> desire. A lot of great people in this industry are
> great because they are good - not because a test
> told
> the world that they were.
>
>
>
> --- Donald B Johnson jr
> wrote:
> > I don't agree, people who write technically, their
> > reputation is centered
> > around how accurate their writing is, and where
> > mistakes are made how
> > quickly they fix those errors. I don't see where
> > failing a test, would
> > invalidate anyone's writing or lessen their
> > reputation. The quoted
> > explanation may be true I am not disputing that,
> it
> > probably is a factor, I
> > just think it is unfounded.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kevin Schwantz"
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: Is it really worth it? "CCIE"
> [7:5725]
> >
> >
> > > Did you know that many of the top Cisco
> engineers
> > are not CCIE qualified?
> > I
> > > have always wondered why people like Sam Halabi
> > and the likes do not get
> > > certified.A Cisco employee told me that these
> > people have everything to
> > lose
> > > and nothing to gain if they take the CCIE exam.
> If
> > they refrain from
> > taking
> > > the tests, their reputation stays intact. If
> they
> > take the test and fail,
> > > people will start to question their credibility.
> > >
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > > ""Morabito Joe"" wrote in message
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > Hi,
>
=== message truncated ===
=====
Robert Padjen
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