I guess it's just a matter of taste... Since CCIE is supposed the end all
know all cert in Cisco world... it's seems superfluous to add any lower
level certs such as CCNP/DP and it might be construed to indicate an
infactuation with certs and letters after ones name... why not add CCNA to
the end as well, or is that one not good enough... Compare it to when
someone achieves a PhD... are they going to put BS after their name as
well... of course not... it's implied! Such is the case with CCIE... I'd
just like to see the CCIE recognition kept at the highest level and I think
putting CCNP after your CCIE designation is kind of silly... This is the
first time I saw that. All the CCIE's I know wouldn't dream of doing that!
BTW, I believe you're mistaken about the recertification... According to
Cisco's website you need to recertify every 3 years unless you achieve a
higher level certification during that time...
Sorry if it seems like I'm bashing you... that's not what I'm trying to
do... Cheers and good luck!
Dennis
""Claude-Vincent"" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Let's say that not every CCIE get all these certs.
> Moreover, being certified CCIE doesn't prevent me from
> recertifying CCNP and CCDP every 3 years as far as I
> know ;-(
>
> Cheers,
> Claude-Vincent Perez
> CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
>
> --- hal9001 wrote:
> > Thankyou, William, it is a long, very hard road and
> > in this consumer
> > orientated society unless you advertise your wares
> > you will end up at the
> > bottom of the pile!
> >
> > Karl - Bottom of the Pile!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "William Gragido"
> > To: "'hal9001'" ;
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:13 PM
> > Subject: RE: Cisco Certifications still worth
> > anything? [7:10599]
> >
> >
> > > I think that Claude has every right to put them
> > there if he so desires
> > > seeing as they are different certifications and he
> > earned them.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > > hal9001
> > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:31 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth
> > anything? [7:10599]
> > >
> > >
> > > Flaunt it Claude flaunt it! Dennis I gather he's
> > a great guy and a real
> > hit
> > > with the ladies as well, apparently they are all
> > choked or is that they
> > get
> > > all choked up about him.
> > >
> > > Karl
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dennis H"
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:12 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Cisco Certifications still worth
> > anything? [7:10599]
> > >
> > >
> > > > Claude,
> > > >
> > > > Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP
> > and CCNP after CCIE?
> > The
> > > > fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're
> > ABOVE NP/DP level, no?
> > > >
> > > > Dennis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ""Claude-Vincent"" wrote in message
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am
> > working on
> > > > > writing proposals, designing networks etc. as
> > you said
> > > > > and the network implementation is done by the
> > service
> > > > > department. Fortunately my company is a
> > training Gold
> > > > > partner so I can still play with all I want at
> > any
> > > > > time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Claude-Vincent
> > > > > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> > > > >
> > > > > --- nrf wrote:
> > > > > > I first have to say that I agree with you in
> > that I
> > > > > > find very few CCIE's
> > > > > > actually performing gritty hands-on work.
> > So then
> > > > > > you are probably
> > > > > > wondering what is the whole point of working
> > on your
> > > > > > configuration and
> > > > > > troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE,
> > only to
> > > > > > then become shunted into a
> > > > > > position where those skills are rarely used?
> > I have
> > > > > > also thought long and
> > > > > > hard about this phenomena.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here,
> > and go
> > > > > > off on a bit of a tangent,
> > > > > > but just bear with me. I believe that
> > criticisms of
> > > > > > the utility of industry
> > > > > > certifications could also be said about the
> > college
> > > > > > degree. Sure, CCIE's
> > > > > > are routinely put into high-level positions
> > that
> > > > > > involve little of the
> > > > > > hands-on configuring and troubleshooting
> > that is the
> > > > > > very heart of the CCIE.
> > > > > > But as we all know, many companies have
> > positions
> > > > > > that require job
> > > > > > candidates to have a degree, but few of
> > those
> > > > > > positions actually require
> > > > > > the knowledge of the exact subjects people
> > learn
> > > > > > in college. Would-be
> > > > > > flamers, hear me out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Consider the average bachelor's degree. If
> > it is in
> > > > > > the humanities, you
> > > > > > spent quite a bit of time studying various
> > authors
> > > > > > or artists, writing
> > > > > > papers on literary and artistic criticism
> > (the who,
> > > > > > the what and the why of
> > > > > > the artist/author and his work) and being
> > exposed
> > > > > > to various cultural
> > > > > > schools of thought. If it was in a social
> > science,
> > > > > > then you most likely
> > > > > > studied a lot of socio/political/economic
> > theory and
> > > > > > their application. If
> > > > > > you studied a science or engineering, then
> > > > > > high-level calculus was the
> > > > > > order of the day, in terms of expressing
> > events in
> > > > > > mathematical terms. If
> > > > > > it was computer science, then a whole lot of
> > > > > > abstract programming theory.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But regardless of what you studied, I think
> > it is
> > > > > > universally true that
> > > > > > college graduates with whatever degree then
> > plunge
> > > > > > into their careers and
> > > > > > rarely use the actual skills that they
> > picked up in
> > > > > > college. Barring those
> > > > > > who have entered academia, how many times
> > does the
> > > > > > typical grad with an
> > > > > > English degree get the opportunity to do an
> > literary
> > > > > > analysis of Elizabeth
> > > > > > vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world
> > graduates
> > > > > > of economics, in their
> > > > > > day-to-day working life, actually have to
> > whip out
> > > > > > supply/demand curves and
> > > > > > calculate marginal utility? Even the
> > engineering
> > > > > > graduates (historically
> > > > > > one of the most applied of all the college
> > > > > > subjects), how many times do they
> > > > > > really have to derive out a 40-line
> > thermodynamics
> > > > > > multivariable calculus
> > > > > > formula using just pencil and paper, and
> > within 15
> > > > > > minutes?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ah but, college administrators and the
> > pundits of
> > > > > > education will stress,
> > > > > > what make the college experience so
> > valuable is not
> > > > > > the subject matter per
> > > > > > se, but rather the base level disciplining
> > and
> > > > > > training of the mind that is
> > > > > > the ultimate goal. It is not the
> > memorization of
> > > > > > the political theories of
> > > > > > Plato that is important, rather it is the
> > improved
> > > > > > cultural exposure, the
> > > > > > openness to different philosophies, and the
> > ability
> > > > > > to conceive of and
> > > > > > defend a particular thought. It is not the
> > ability
> > > > > > to quickly derive and
> > > > > > calculate the eigenvectors of a linear
> > algebra
> > > > > > matrix that is important,
> > > > > > rather it is the improved grasp and
> > understanding of
> > > > > > abstract concepts that
> > > > > > is the real prize. In short, you college
> > grads
> > > > > > are hired not for the
> > > > > > precise subject matter that they studied,
> > but
> > > > > > because they have demonstrated
> > > > > > enhanced thought processes and the ability
> > to
> > > > > > quickly learn whatever skills
> > > > > > they need for their career.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is
> > > > > > evolving into a similar role.
> > > > > > CCIE's are prized by employers not because
> > they can
> > > > > > type a config for and
> > > > > > troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network
> > without
> > > > > > using subinterfaces and
> > > > > > while still electing a DR/BDR in less than
> > an hour,
> > > > > > typing at 150
> > > > > > words-per-minute. Rather they are prized
> > because in
> > > > > > the course of their
> > > > > > study, they have substantially improved
> > their
> > > > > > knowledge of networking
> > > > > > fundamentals and have developed a systematic
> > and
> > > > > > logical method of fixing
> > > > > > problems.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, some readers out there might take
> > exception to
> > > > > > the above paragraph and
> > > > > > point out that there are some CCIE's who
> > have
> > > > > > developed more than a
> > > > > > superficial knowledge of networking, and
> > obtained
> > > > > > their 4-digit-number just
> > > > > > by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs.
> > Of
> > > > > > course I'm sure that has
> > > > > > happened.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yet the same thing also happens with the
> > college
> > > > > > degree, but you hardly ever
> > > > > > hear anybody complain about that. I think
> > everybody
> > > > > > college graduate has a
> > > > > > story about somebody they knew who was
> > admitted
> > > > > > just because he could play
> > > > > > a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of
> > money, or
> > > > > > something like that.
> > > > > > Then that person deliberately searched for
> > and
> > > > > > enrolled in the easiest
> > > > > > possible subjects and undertook the easiest
> > possible
> > > > > > coursework (have you
> > > > > > ever noticed how Division 1 college football
> > and
> > > > > > basketball players always
> > > > > > seem to major in things like mass
> > communications or
> > > > > > hotel management?). But
> > > > > > they graduate just like everybody else.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots
> > of
> > > > > > people complain incessantly
> > > > > > about the paper certificate - the paper
> > MCSE, the
> > > > > > paper CCNA, the paper
> > > > > > ABCDEFG. Yet, it seems to me that there
> > is also
> > > > > > such a thing as a paper
> > > > > > college degree, but nobody ever seems to
> > complain
> > > > > > about that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ""NY50TT"" wrote in message
> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > > Well here's a thread certain to start a
> > fire, but
> > > > > > I thought I'd see what
> > > > > > > would happen.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does the community feel that Cisco
> > Certifications
> > > > > > are still in demand in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > market place? Do they still get you
> > through the
> > > > > > door in anything?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have been in the IT field for the better
> > part of
> > > > > > 8 years. This year, I
> > > > > > > will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K,
> > and I
> > > > > > have a very short list of
> > > > > > > certifications which I rarely use in the
> > network
> > > > > > security and development
> > > > > > > position I'm in. I work for a very large,
> > if not
> > > > > > the largest IT shop in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > world, and I am a little disoriented by
> > what is
> > > > > > seen as really important
> > > > > > > inside this organization. I have some
> > level of
> > > > > > respect for this
> > > > > > > organization because of it's sheer size
> > and some
> > > > > > of the industry giants
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > experts I work on teams with. However it
> > doesn't
> > > > > > seem that certification
> > > > > > > matters. All of the top tier architects,
> > the
> > > > > > "Gods" of the "Gods" are
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > undoubtedly very good at what they do, and
> > rumor
> > > > > > has it they are paid
> > > > > > > handsomely(much more than me), but a quick
> > direct
> > > > > > survey of these rather
> > > > > > > humble people, and I find that they have
> > just been
> > > > > > around for forever and
> > > > > > > seem to know near everything, especially
> > about the
> > > > > > business aspect of
> > > > > > > things, but don't carry any certifications
> > that
> > > > > > some deem so important to
> > > > > > > get(though I have no doubt they would pass
> > if they
> > > > > > were forced to take the
> > > > > > > tests). Yet they are crucial to the
> > organization,
> > > > > > and would probably be
> > > > > > > considered "lifers", meaning they would
> > never
> > > > > > leave the organization.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, as you may understand, seeing this
> > every day,
> > > > > > you might imagine why I
> > > > > > am
> > > > > > > so disillusioned and pose this question.
> > If I
> > > > > > don't see certifications
> > > > > > > meaning anything inside the organization
> > I'm part
> > > > > > of right now, what do
> > > > > > > others see certifications worth in their
> > world,
> > > > > > their work, their area?
> > > > > > Is
> > > > > > > the playing field different "on the
> > outside"?
> > > > > > Does organization size make
> > > > > > > the difference? Do certifications matter
> > more in
> > > > > > an organization of 50 ,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > in one with 50 thousand people?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I guess the other confusing aspect is
> > that I use
> > > > > > my skills diffrently now
> > > > > > > than I did before. It used to matter that
> > I could
> > > > > > sit down on a bunch of
> > > > > > > routers or switches and configure
> > (provision them
> > > > > > when they are not
> > > > > > ciscos)
> > > > > > > and make them do anything under the sun.
> > Now
> > > > > > that's considered a less
> > > > > > > valuable "production" type work, and the
> > > > > > design,testing, project
> > > > > > management,
> > > > > > > policy writting, and architecture work I
> > do is for
> > > > > > some reason considered
> > > > > > > more important than all that "lesser", and
> > once
> > > > > > crucial "production" work?
> > > > > > > Now I spend my days testing and designing
> > new
> > > > > > infrastructres, and once my
> > > > > > > documentation and design is done and
> > approved,
> > > > > > people, they call them
> > > > > > "I.T.
> > > > > > > Specialists and "Junior Network
> > Architects"
> > > > > > sometimes getting paid a
> > > > > > whole
> > > > > > > lot less (almost half less) go out there
> > and
> > > > > > actually implement it
> > > > > > > worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to
> > analyize
> > > > > > things when they go
> > > > > > > wrong, and help out with the roll-outs,
> > but
> > > > > > somehow I pictured that I
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be touching more routers, not authoring
> > documents
> > > > > > of policy, design, and
> > > > > > > architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having
> > trouble
> > > > > > adjusting, but I spent many
> > > > > > > long nights study this sh** to be an
> > expert at it,
> > > > > > all the time
> > > > > > envisioning
> > > > > > > that I would be building and deploying
> > networks,
> > > > > > actually using this sh**,
> > > > > > > to make a living, but what ended up
> > happening is
> > > > > > that I use maybe 20% of
> > > > > > > that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff
> > I
> > > > > > actually get paid for has
> > > > > > almost
> > > > > > > nothing to do with any certification or
> > education
> > > > > > path)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to
> > be
> > > > > > geared torwards doing this
> > > > > > type
> > > > > > > of "production" work, do CCIE's really use
> > those
> > > > > > skills in production once
> > > > > > > they receive their CCIE? Do they even
> > touch a
> > > > > > router anymore?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I
> > personally
> > > > > > know, he's the CIO at the
> > > > > > > site for the organization that I work for.
> > He
> > > > > > approves security policy
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > the entire organization world wide, but
> > it's
> > > > > > probably been a long time
> > > > > > since
> > > > > > > he has even had to touch a router, switch,
> > or
> > > > > > firewall. (that's the job
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > people like me, we go out, test the latest
> > and
> > > > > > greatest, create proposals,
> > > > > > > and them submit them to him to get
> > approved)
> > > > > > (though I should probably
> > > > > > ask
> > > > > > > him on monday in passing, when the last
> > time he
> > > > > > sat at a console actually
> > > > > > > was) I kid not, he is simply amazing, and
> > he
> > > > > > know's everything, and has
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > scary guru type knowledge on networking
> > and
> > > > > > security, but I still hold
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > I seriously doubt he uses any of the
> > "production"
> > > > > > type knowledge that the
> > > > > > > cisco ccie lab tests for on a day-to-day
> > basis.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That all makes it seem, that the concepts
> > and
> > > > > > years of expereince mean
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > than the actuall cert, in this
> > organization, but I
> > > > > > wonder it it's the same
> > > > > > > everywhere else. Now, I'm sure that this
> > CCIE has
> > > > > > spent his years doing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > "production" work, but is the natural
> > progression
> > > > > > of things such that once
> > > > > > > you get the high tier certifications, that
> > you
> > > > > > move on to upper
> > > > > > management,
> > > > > > > and the type of work you end up doing is
> > less and
> > > > > > less hands on techincal
> > > > > > > and more and more business related?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Another CCIE I've heard of, works in
> > denver as a
> > > > > > sales engineer for
> > > > > > juniper
> > > > > > > networks. In fact, juniper is one of the
> > > > > > companies we are testing for
> > > > > > > replacing some devices that aren't
> > handling the
> > > > > > load requierments of our
> > > > > > > latest infrastructure(And I guess I'll
> > probably
> > > > > > end up working with this
> > > > > > guy
> > > > > > > when we get permission to actually talk to
> > > > > > juniper). Here's this CCIE,
> > > > > > > who's job is to tag along with salesmen of
> > juniper
> > > > > > equipment, and be there
> > > > > > > to just dole out knowledge and insight on
> > a
> > > > > > perpective customer's needs,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > how juniper equipment can fit it, in a
> > mostly
> > > > > > cisco world. But the point
> > > > > > > is, he too probably (and I guess) seldomly
> > touches
> > > > > > a router anymore.
> > > > > > > Probably spends alot of time writting
> > proposals,
> > > > > > making drawings, and
> > > > > > > looking at architectures and design than
> > anything
> > > > > > else.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CCIE's are expensive to hire, I guess it
> > makes
> > > > > > sense to use them for the
> > > > > > > most critical work, and leave the "grunt"
> > work for
> > > > > > other, less expensive
> > > > > > > workers, but I guess my point is that the
> > "grunt"
> > > > > > work used to be fun
> > > > > > > sometimes. When you get a CCIE or such,
> > do you
> > > > > > still get to play?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Somehow I figured things would be
> > different.
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =====
> > > > > Claude-Vincent Perez
> > > > > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo!
> > Mail
> > > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> =====
> Claude-Vincent Perez
> CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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