You might have a point, Chuck. And I've not attained a CCIE but if we can
use CCNP/CCDP as an analogue, consider the following: when studying for
Cisco tests, I've been as guilty as anyone else of "cramming" in order to
pass the test. But I think (I hope) I have a sense of what the "meat" is
versus what the "fluff" is, or those concepts that I will use over and over
as opposed to those things I'm not likely to run into again and just need to
memorize for purposes of a test. In any given week, I'm apt to run into
frame relay, ISDN, PIX/VPN/FFS, dynamic routing, VLANs, Trunking, and on and
on. In other words, it pays to read for understanding. It's not the same
as a political science test that one might study for in college. The only
real-world application (for most) is having an edge in good political
conversation. But I see a direct corollary between test/study material and
doing my job successfully, and I see it every day. I think that what I am
saying is that studying for certifications in the manner I do has a direct
and positive impact on the competence of my work. I'll grant that one may
be able to pass a CCIE lab some other way, but I personally don't think I
could succeed that way and I think it would be a terrible waste of time for
me to engage in such a thing. Lastly, there's a fear factor. I have this
dream about passing the lab the first time around (realistic? You tell me,
but that's the dream). In order to have the faintest chance of passing on
the first go-round, my knowledge had better be both deep and wide. Put
another way, I don't want to "squeak by" in the lab. I would like for a
proctor to look at my work and say, yes, this person does work commensurate
with the CCIE-level. I want it to be a gauge of my overall ability and not
a gauge of my temporary "ability" at some slice in time that's not
sustainable. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way. And so I took
umbrage at the article when I saw the words "minimal competence" attached to
CCIE. I guess you're right, Chuck. It depends.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
Chuck Larrieu
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
like everything else in this business, the answer is "it depends".
sorry folks, but CCIE's are not gods who walk among us.
I personally know several CCIE's who are top notch and deserving of every
dollar they get and every contract they land.
I also personally know a couple who couldn't tell you how a packet gets from
one interface to another in a router.
all the CCIE certification proves is that you have passed Cisco's lab test.
It does not prove one way or another whether you know jack about networking.
I suggest that there is a percentage of the 2000 or so who have attained the
cert since last year who did so only because they successfully memorized
enough scenario configurations that they were able to luck their way through
when their lab closely resembled one of those scenarios they memorized.
I personally know several folks who passed over the last 18 months whose
only hands on experience was in their practice labs. Of these, all were
pretty sharp dudes, by the way.
>From personal experience I can tell you that I saw absolutely nothing in my
lab that made me wish I'd spent more time reading RFC's, or Comer, or any of
the other great books of the networking world. I saw plenty that made me
wish I'd spent more time on certain practice materials readily available ( I
refer to the commercially available products. please do not contact me for
names and sources )
whenever this topic comes up, I see the same kinds of thought processes as I
used to see in the days when people asked what good an English degree did
you in the job market. It isn't the degree. it's the intelligence behind it.
hate to say it, kids, but the CCIE has no clothes. Experience is what really
matters. the certification to many is just a ticket, just the beginning. to
those with a lot of experience, it is merely a validation of the skill set.
in and of itself it is like any other piece of paper - representative of
something, but perhaps not representative of what you may think.
Chuck
back to the pod - got lots to do before December 3
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Don Claybrook
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: One Journalist's Opinion of CCIE [7:18843]
I just ran across this one in Fortune Small Business. Below is an excerpt.
The journalist (Larry Seltzer) is attempting to give tips on how to hire
technical consultants to do work for your small business. He's talking
about
how certifications aren't as important as one might think:
"When looking for qualified help, don't read too much into a consultant's
alphabet soup of certifications. They don't signify ability, just as my
political science degree doesn't make me your next President. Terms like
CCIE
(Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) indicate only successful completion of
the program and minimal competence in the product."
I wish I knew this guy's email address. Anyway, I thought the group might
get
a kick out of it. Here's the link in case you want to read the whole thing:
http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb/features/sp_f_090601_1.psp
Don Claybrook
CCNP, CCDP (but not yet up to the minimal competence level of CCIE)
Message Posted at:
http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=18902&t=18843
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