Jos Hulzink kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika Sunnuntai 05 Lokakuu 2003 19:04): > On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 17:05, Thomas Backlund wrote: > > > > People will start saying: "... but you updated that package ...", > > > > and "this package adds or modifies this or that feature that is > > > > needed... if we don't have it I consider it's broken... and we can't > > > > have a "broken" distrib..." > > > > > > Now we're comparing OpenOffice with Gaim... What these bugs are for > > > Gaim, is "oowriter and oocalc won't start" for OpenOffice. (Which > > > actually happened to me in RC2, but happened to be fixed in time). I.e. > > > buggy enough to make the package unusable for most people. > > > > Maybe a bad comparision, but the point is that different users has > > different opinions of what's important to get as an update.... > > You are right there... And I am experienced enough with linux to compile > gaim from scratch if I have to... But I don't want to go back to this > specific case at all.. > > If software is buggy, you can do three things IMHO: > > 1) Provide upgrades for everyone
This is already done for security and bugs... > 2) Make very clear to "download" users that updates are available for the > software but they are only available after registration. This is what is > said to happen now, but I haven't seen such thing. Sure, I can <click here> > to register, but what I am missing is the "ah I have to register, so these > bugs are fixed and I get these advantages" feeling. This need to be better adverised... > 3) Don't ship the software. > Now this is an interesting one... Once again, where do you draw the line if it's considered to buggy or not...? Just to make an example: - There are people that can't get X to run properly/or not at all on their system..., so lets not ship it at all ;-) ( Yeah, it's an overkill... but you get the point) It's always difficult to decide what to ship and what not to... > > > > today gaim, tomorrow OpenOffice.org final..., and then ... > > > > > > > > and suddenly the updates mirrors are not a few kB more... instead you > > > > will be calculating the updates in MBs, then in GBs .... > > > > > > For some reason I immedately must think about the famous Redmond OS > > > service packs, sometimes 100 MB in size. You happily download those, > > > for they fix bugs. > > > > Yeah, but we don't have to try to be as "bad" as them... ;-) > > and remember that all those customers (atleast the legal ones) has > > already paid for their product, something that you can compare to the > > club account ( see below...) > > I do not completely agree with you on this one. In the Redmond case you > pay, install, get annoyed with the bugs, update. In the mandrake case you > download, install, get annoyed with the bugs, must pay, update. Basic > buisiness rule: annoyed or angry customers are reluctant to pay, especially > when they are not sure that all their problems will be fixed after they > paid. > Well, you dont have to pay for normal security or bugfixes, only for enchancements.. > > and IMHO that's something that people don't really like either especially > > on slow dial-up lines... > > Very true. But the fact a part of the people have a slow connection (none > at all) shouldn't be a reason why not to provide updates. It's a good > reason to provide a "Download most critical fixes only" option. > True, but the current system already supports "Download most critical fixes only" as you can choose what to download or not... > > > > So IMHO here comes the power of an Club membership..., > > > > > > > > join the club and you will most likely get the downloads there... > > > > and all are happy... (you get what you pay for... remember...) > > > > > > You say, become a club member. Ok, fair. Problem is, when I Mr newbe > > > user download Mandrake, I see a buggy distro, and no updates. In the > > > first place, I see nowhere that many problems are solved if I pay (and > > > I'm reluctant to pay, for Mandrake is buggy, and who tells me that my > > > problems are gone after I paid ?), in the second place, after I paid, > > > the manual how to get the club updates in, is practically non existent > > > (I found something deep in a forum once). > > > > If you have a club account, after the installation, upon first boot, the > > Fist Time Wizard will help you set up your Club account, and > > automatically add the club download source to the installer, and so you > > will be able to upgrde... > > Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a > clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual > screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished hacking, > the first time wizzard has long forgotten that it ever existed (and me > too). > This is actually something that could be better..., but how do you get people reminded of it without annoying them...? > > > Users are willing to pay for something good, not for something bad that > > > mabye gets better after they paid. To quote you: "join the club and you > > > will most likely get the downloads there". I don't see whether that is > > > true, so I should just pay and hope ? Sorry, that's not the way > > > customers think in 2003. > > > > I made a Bad choice of words... > > most packages that have had a high demand has been built and uploaded > > to Club AFAIK... > > I have been a club member for half a year now, and manage to find my way > trough the download section. (www interface that is, the urpmi interface is > easy, but I try to look as a non-member now) All I ment to say is that > customers want to see what they pay for, and the entrance to the club > downloads (for non club members) isn't exactly paved with marble... Mr > Newbie downloads 9.2, installs 9.2, clicks trough the first time wizzard, > skipping the registration for he first wants to see whether he likes it, > and gets no clue anymore that the bugs are solved / updates are available > if he is registered. It would be nice if Mandrake Update shows all files > available in Club with a red cross in front: "Only available for club > members" > This would actually be a nice feature IMHO ;-), but not that easy to do without abusing the b/w.. as you would need to dowmload an extra hdlist for the club, to get full descriptions on the club packages... > > > What I am really discussing is the way users see MandrakeSoft, that > > > almost bankrupt company with a rather cool distro that needs all money > > > it can get. The problem with any linux distribution is that the > > > Download Edition is in fact your advertisement. And bad advertisement > > > doesn't sell. And selling is essential for MandrakeSoft. > > > > OTOH many of the users of Download Edition does not ever buy a package or > > become a club member anyway, wich means it does not generate any income > > there either... > > True, therefore you don't have to provide everything for free. Throwing out > a fishing line to catch the users for the club is a good one too. Though at > the moment I got the feeling the bait on MandrakeClubs fishing line is > missing. > Yeah, it need to be improved, but we are getting there... The Club early access to 9.2 ISOs is one step..., that really shows the advantage of being a club member... > > > Maybe -but that's too late now- it is an option to add a feature during > > > the install period: Enter MandrakeClub membership ID / Passwd (or > > > registration code) to get less critical updates. I can live with paying > > > for some updates, if only you can make clear to the customers what they > > > gain after paying. Show them a list of updates only available to > > > members... or something... > > > > this is alrerady done by the first time wizard... > > Ok, told you already why I missed the wizard. Just did the wizard again, > and I don't see the list I talked about though. > It could be improved ..., and hopefully it will... -- Regards Thomas
