> On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 17:05, Thomas Backlund wrote: >> > > People will start saying: "... but you updated that package ...", >> and "this package adds or modifies this or that feature that is >> needed... if we don't have it I consider it's broken... and we >> can't have a "broken" distrib..." >> > >> > Now we're comparing OpenOffice with Gaim... What these bugs are for >> Gaim, is "oowriter and oocalc won't start" for OpenOffice. (Which >> actually happened to me in RC2, but happened to be fixed in time). >> I.e. buggy enough to make the package unusable for most people. >> >> Maybe a bad comparision, but the point is that different users has >> different opinions of what's important to get as an update.... > > You are right there... And I am experienced enough with linux to compile > gaim from scratch if I have to... But I don't want to go back to this > specific case at all.. > > If software is buggy, you can do three things IMHO:
Sorry, but where is the bug report for this buggy software? This is not a bug (to my understanding), but a feature enhancement (if we're talking about gaim). > > 1) Provide upgrades for everyone This is done for real bugs and for security vulnerabilities. > 2) Make very clear to "download" users that updates are available for > the software but they are only available after registration. This is > what is said to happen now, but I haven't seen such thing. Sure, I can > <click here> to register, but what I am missing is the "ah I have to > register, so these bugs are fixed and I get these advantages" feeling. Well, that doesn't change which software should be placed where, only the initial message that should appear in the first time wizard. I am running it now, and it says "If you have an internet connection you'll be able to refister for Mandrake Online Services" (which, granted, is a bit vague, but then MandrakeClub isn't just updated packages ..). > 3) Don't ship the software. Or leave it in contrib ;-) > >> > > today gaim, tomorrow OpenOffice.org final..., and then ... >> > > >> > > and suddenly the updates mirrors are not a few kB more... instead >> you will be calculating the updates in MBs, then in GBs .... >> > >> > For some reason I immedately must think about the famous Redmond OS >> service packs, sometimes 100 MB in size. You happily download those, >> for they fix bugs. >> >> Yeah, but we don't have to try to be as "bad" as them... ;-) >> and remember that all those customers (atleast the legal ones) has >> already >> paid for their product, something that you can compare to the club >> account ( see below...) > > I do not completely agree with you on this one. In the Redmond case you > pay, install, get annoyed with the bugs, update. In the mandrake case > you download, install, get annoyed with the bugs, must pay, update. No, you don't pay for bugs. Bugfixes are provided via updates. If you want feature enhancements without doing the work yourself, you can join MandrakeClub. > Basic buisiness rule: annoyed or angry customers are reluctant to pay, > especially when they are not sure that all their problems will be fixed > after they paid. And, if all their needs are satisfied without paying, why would they pay? (Not that I advocate an extortion system where you can only get a functional system if you are a member, but there must be something of value which you can only get by paying ...). > >> and IMHO that's something that people don't really like either >> especially on slow dial-up lines... > > Very true. But the fact a part of the people have a slow connection > (none at all) shouldn't be a reason why not to provide updates. It's a > good reason to provide a "Download most critical fixes only" option. And "critical fixes only" are in the official updates. > >> >> > > So IMHO here comes the power of an Club membership..., >> > > >> > > join the club and you will most likely get the downloads there... >> and all are happy... (you get what you pay for... remember...) >> > >> > You say, become a club member. Ok, fair. Problem is, when I Mr newbe >> user download Mandrake, I see a buggy distro, and no updates. In the >> first place, I see nowhere that many problems are solved if I pay >> (and I'm reluctant to pay, for Mandrake is buggy, and who tells me >> that my problems are gone after I paid ?), in the second place, >> after I paid, the manual how to get the club updates in, is >> practically non existent (I found something deep in a forum once). >> >> If you have a club account, after the installation, upon first boot, >> the Fist Time Wizard will help you set up your Club account, and >> automatically add the club download source to the installer, and so >> you will be able to upgrde... > > Ok, I must admit, I missed the first time wizzard on 9.2 (and was not a > clubmember yet when I installed 9.1), for X crashes badly with my dual > screen setup. (A known bug in the Matrox driver) After I finished > hacking, the first time wizzard has long forgotten that it ever existed > (and me too). You can easily access it after installation. Start->Configuration->Other->Discover Custom Services (yes, that is a bad place to put it, file a bug if you want). > >> > Users are willing to pay for something good, not for something bad >> that mabye gets better after they paid. To quote you: "join the club >> and you will most likely get the downloads there". I don't see >> whether that is true, so I should just pay and hope ? Sorry, that's >> not the way customers think in 2003. >> >> I made a Bad choice of words... >> most packages that have had a high demand has been built and uploaded >> to Club AFAIK... > > I have been a club member for half a year now, and manage to find my way > trough the download section. (www interface that is, the urpmi > interface is easy, but I try to look as a non-member now) All I ment to > say is that customers want to see what they pay for, and the entrance > to the club downloads (for non club members) isn't exactly paved with > marble... Mr Newbie downloads 9.2, installs 9.2, clicks trough the > first time wizzard, skipping the registration for he first wants to see > whether he likes it, and gets no clue anymore that the bugs are solved > / updates are available if he is registered. It would be nice if > Mandrake Update shows all files available in Club with a red cross in > front: "Only available for club members" > >> > What I am really discussing is the way users see MandrakeSoft, that >> almost bankrupt company with a rather cool distro that needs all >> money it can get. The problem with any linux distribution is that >> the Download Edition is in fact your advertisement. And bad >> advertisement doesn't sell. And selling is essential for >> MandrakeSoft. >> >> OTOH many of the users of Download Edition does not ever buy a package >> or become a club member anyway, wich means it does not generate any >> income there either... > > True, therefore you don't have to provide everything for free. Throwing > out a fishing line to catch the users for the club is a good one too. > Though at the moment I got the feeling the bait on MandrakeClubs > fishing line is missing. Well, bring this up with the Club. We have no influence there. > >> > Maybe -but that's too late now- it is an option to add a feature >> during the install period: Enter MandrakeClub membership ID / Passwd >> (or registration code) to get less critical updates. I can live with >> paying for some updates, if only you can make clear to the customers >> what they gain after paying. Show them a list of updates only >> available to members... or something... >> >> this is alrerady done by the first time wizard... >> > > Ok, told you already why I missed the wizard. Just did the wizard > again, and I don't see the list I talked about though. Must I post screenshots?? If you missed it, just run 'drakfw' from the command line, and this is the same thing you see on first login (if you haven't run it before). The first page is default window manager, the 2nd page is email client settings, the 3rd is the user survey, and the 4th is the Club registration page, which does list the benefits a bit better, and has the following options: -I have a product Key and I want to register -I am already a member -No thanks. I think it's obvious enough ... and I think your concerns should be covered by that. But, as I said before, there is nothing we can do about 9.2 official release, we can only: -file bugs -test updates -package it for Club if there aren't official updates (but I won't do it since I don't use gaim, I am only prepared to upload to club software I use or have tested ...) Regards, Buchan ***************************************************************** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *****************************************************************
