You have tattoos? I'm afraid I'm going to have to look for a new discussion
group... lol!
I really liked the point about the importance of the church building. We all
know that the church is the people but I think we would also agree (I think...
I know I would anyway) that parts of the Church building itself are more holy
and sacred. This is at an odd juxtaposition with the Overdrive service I
attend - I don't consider the Overdrive facilities particularly "holy" per se
but I would consider the main curch sanctuary as "holy". If a church service
is held at that location isn't it holy? Is is only holy during church? this
brings up all kinds of questions (Should I not wear a hat around people I go to
church with? their the church after all, right?). I'm going to have to ponder
the origins of my thought processes here.
On topic though. Thanks for the insight fella's. I also came to the
conclusion that the hat doffing was more cultural than spiritual. I was hoping
you all would read 1 Corinthians 11 and see that it is a little presumptuous to
just take that passage and say hey! - we shouldn't wear hats in church.
There's more going on there, as Mike suggested, and even more than Mike
suggested when you start looking at the issue of headship and what exactly Paul
is referring to - he seems to have a double meaning going. Not sure I'm
comfortable just dismissing the entirety of the Corinthian letters as only for
a specific church because there is some very good stuff in there. However,
there is considerable support that Paul is addressing specific topics in this
specific church rather than outlining how all churches should be. Don't want
to get too sidetracked as I have a point I want to make - but, in the first
letter Paul states woman should be silent in church while in other places in
the NT woman are clearly a part of worship services. This contradiction can be
resolved by saying there were specific women in the Corinthian church who were
a problem. Other aspects, such as the head covering section, have no
contradiction (that I'm aware of) so are they just for Corinth or for all of
us? Well anyway, there are clearly different ways to run specific churches
based on the local culture or needs - this is seen in scripture This is
interesting when you look at the negative light the splintered church is viewed
in. Isn't it possible that God knew different worship styles would appeal to
different types of people and there is no one specific way church is meant to
be run. I think the answer is yes.
Back to hats for a sec. Once I decided the hat doffing phenomenon was cultural
I started to look into the roots of this practice. Some people say it is a
sign of respect that developed during medieval times when knights raised their
visor so there friends could see their face. I have seen it noted that it is
common Jewish practice to cover one's head when praying vice uncovering. I
also saw it noted that outside of the U.S. no one really cares about your hat.
Ms. Manners tells me its just proper etiquette. However, some people do think
it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. One of the points I made in class (and I big one I
want to make here) relates back to why do people blame Christians for things we
have nothing to do with. One of the big complaints I see as I putter around
message boards and skeptic sites is that people have a problem with
inconsistencies in the observance of the Christian faith. I already talked
about different worship methods above. Additionally, I think people fail to
see that to become a Christian is not to just to suddenly snap to conformance
of some supposed norm. e.g. a new Christian may have no problem wearing their
hat to church but as they mature they may, depending on how they develop in
Christ. The church is made up of hat wearers and non-hat wearers and this is
ok to us but puzzling from the outside.
Personally, I don't like seeing all the kids running around with hats on during
church but I do like seeing them in church which is clearly more important. I
would hope they are being taught that if they know to take their hat off during
the national anthem (and hopefully they do, but that's a whole 'nother topic to
be sure) its a no-brainer that we take our hat off when we're worshiping God.
As they mature in Christ I suspect many of them will come to this conclusion on
their own without a heavy-handed approach.
Rob
some people feel it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[email protected]> Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The
Baseball Cap Wars...> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:13:47 -0500> > > Rob,> i just
finished reading the article. I can certainly appreciate the > difficulty that
the pastor faced in dealing with the problem. I am > confident that the real
problem was more cultural than it was > "spiritual", which may prove to be the
same in some settings. This > type of problem surfaces in churches everywhere,
just under a > different description. Perhaps, it is suits and ties as opposed
to > pants and t-shirt. I know that a great number of people disregard my >
opinion on matters due to the fact that I have tattoos or because I > have a
gotee. Often people consider my thoughts to be of little > consequence due to
the fact that I am a "pastor" and what do I really > know about living life
outside of the Church walls. There was only > one point in the article when it
was suggested that it was ".. a sign > of submission to a higher authority" to
remove a person's hat inside > of the Church building or during prayer at a
Graveside Service. It > seemed to me that wearing the hats had less to do with
a "spiritual > position" and more to do with rebellion. No question that the >
rebellion ultimately was against God and his call for all believers to >
consider the needs of the fellowship as a whole, but that was not > really
conveyed by the Pastor to the family. I have found it > interesting that such a
great deal of emphasis has been placed on the > "proper things to do in the
church building", not necessarily within > this post, but in general. As if the
building truly represented the > body of Christ as a whole. Paul makes such a
strong argument for the > believer to be identified as the "temple" of God in
opposition to a > building. If everything we do outside of the building is
contrary to > the Law of the Spirit, does it matter if we honor the "rules"
inside > of the building?> On Oct 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Rob L. wrote:> > >> >
In discussing James 4:12 last week I was trying to make a point that> > if we
don't obey a law because we think it is silly we are judging> > that law. I
initially used some driving laws to make my point (a> > speed limit set to low
e.g.) but turned to biblical laws. First let> > me say that I don't think any
of God's laws are silly and believe He> > has a reason for whatever directives
He has set - I was trying to stir> > up some conversation about why we dismiss
some scripture and obey> > other parts - i.e. are we guilty of judging the
law.... I threw out a> > comment about a friend of all of ours wearing a
"do-rag" in church and> > how as an old-school type church person I didn't
particularly care for> > it; but I acknowledged it seemed like a silly thing to
make an issue> > of even though I know there is some scriptural support for my>
> opinion. WELL!! let me tell you, this opened a can of worms about> > reaching
out to people, and not judging, and freedom in Christ, and> > all manner of
objection and I ended up talking myself into a corner.> > If you don't know I'm
referring to Jim Joyce, and I have related to> > Jim that he was the object of
our discussion and it was as a learning> > point rather than a protest or
complaint. I don't want to come across> > as gossiping behind Jim's back or
anything. The objections were> > specifically that Jim is reaching out to
skaters in the community as> > part as his ministry to youth and if dressing
like them helps them> > feel more comfortable in a church environment and
ultimately brings> > young people to Christ then who am I to get all "pharisee"
on him.> > It troubled me enough to come back to the issue yesterday and
actually> > we spent the whole class discussing this linked article -> >
http://www.ctlibrary.com/le/1998/spring/8l2054.html> > It kind of reminded me
of the whole "dancing" issue so I thought you> > guys might find it
interesting. In reading it I would encourage you> > to see the baseball caps as
a metaphor for whatever postmodern> > behavior you think is relevant. Some
scripture we referenced included> > 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 11. I
have more to add regarding my> > own opinions but as always I'd like to see
you'alls thoughts before I> > inject my own bias (anymore than I already
have...)> >> > Rob> > >> >> >> >> > >
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