What I say here doesn't necessarily conflict with anything anyone has said, and it reemphasizes points already made, so I'm not trying to be novel. But here is a micro-sermon on the topic that fits the attitude of my heart:
Rob, you asked in one of your posts, "How much should the church change to reach out to people?" My position is that if the church is focused on removing hats to the detriment of the gospel, they should change that. Each church I've seen who cares alot about how people dress tends to have a more barren outreach. That's a detriment to the gospel. The gospel is about changing hearts (internal), not about changing dress (external). Accordingly, it seems to me, those who narrowly focus on how someone dresses completely miss the point of the gospel message and the exemplary life of Jesus, who took no concern of how people dress, but who looked into people's hearts. Yes, the point of the gospel is a changed heart towards God and others. Perhaps this changed heart will lead to taking off one's hat in worship, but never will it lead to requiring people dress a certain way, without first looking to the attitude of their heart. So yes, it can be appropriate to ask someone to take off their hat -- when it is an expression of disrespect for the Lord. But in our culture today, there's nothing symbolic or overtly disrespectful about hats or head coverings, I don't think. So it's not much of an issue in most churches. Perhaps Paul would say today, don't put two middle fingers in the sky when praying or prophesying. This is an extreme example, but I wonder if it probes to the point: Don't be disrespectful to the Lord when praying or prophesying. Bobby On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not placing my hand over my chest. Taking my heart out while > metaphorically poignant, is physically disgusting. > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Mike Butler wrote: > > Rob, I didn't perceive your statements regarding women as any type of > ambivalence. I was more interested in your feedback. Here is something I > was pondering today: > Is there really any part of the building more "sacred" than another? After > all, there is only one type of room that has a "throne". I guess I ask this > because, I am in favor of removing my hat during prayer, I am not as adamant > regarding "patriotic" practices. That being said, other than not placing my > heart over my chest, I am typically willing to "honor" our active and fallen > soldiers (present and past) without any hesitation in all public forums. I > find it interesting that 1 Cor. 11 is often referenced in defense of > removing a hat during prayer and when entering the "Sanctuary". There > doesn't seem to be any reference to the "location" being sacred, as much as > the circumstance is sacred. So my real question is this: Is it biblically > supported to remove you hat in a building? We know that the head should be > uncovered during worship, but given that in the early church most people > worshipped in their homes. Do you think it was expected of the person who > owned the home to remove their hat when they entered the house (due to the > fact that there weren't many homes with multiple rooms in the first century) > during non-worship times? Just curious. > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Robert Long wrote: > > I downloaded it but haven't listened to it yet. I'll try to today > sometime. Thought I'd go ahead and post though. I hope I didn't give an > impression that I have some sort of problem with women taking roles in the > church. I feel I'm actually pretty moderate on that as I believe there are > examples of women having church positions (such as Phoebe the Deaconess > mentioned at the end of Romans e.g.). I was just using that Corinthian > directive as an example. > > To answer your question. I see I phrased my conclusion poorly. I > don't think it's an if-than type issue. i.e. if we remove our hat during > the national anthem; than we should also remove out hat in church. > Although, that may be one way to try and present it to a young person who > was struggling with the "why?" of the issue. That said, yes I was brought > up that way. I wouldn't say it was explained to me but rather I followed > the lead of other male figures in my life and was gently chastised by people > I respected when I didn't comply through my own forgetfulness vice any sort > of rebellion. The issue was further cemented when I joined the military. > Disdain seems a strong word but if I honestly reflect on it, it may be > accurate. I admit I do notice it and privately don't approve. I wouldn't > let my own children wear a hat to church and I suppose if I were in any kind > of mentoring role to other young males I would try and gently steer them in > that direction as well. I don't see a problem with a do-rag on the skate > park or even in the church lobby but it doesn't sit right with me to see it > in the church sanctuary during worship and prayer times. But that's just > me, and I wouldn't presume to judge. That is to say, I can separate the > cultural issue from the spiritual one. > A follow on question to you guys would be: which do you think is more > acceptable; asking someone to remove their hat during the national > anthem or asking them to remove it before we pray? > > Rob > > > ------------------------------ > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:28:06 -0500 > > Rob, > We just did a podcast on the role of women in the Church. You should > listen to it if you get a chance. > http://www.sermonconnect.com/search_result.php?keyword=mike+butler&searchtype=general&searchby=speaker&Find=Find > > I really wanted to discuss the significance of the "head covering" in > worship, but I wasn't sure it was necessary in the context of the post. I > may not have been entirely clear on my opinion regarding the Corinthian > Church. I believe that what Paul wrote to that Church was significant then > and is still significant to us today, just for different reasons. I think > the other necessary component to properly interpreting these passages, have > to do with their association with other passages from Paul specifically. > Paul doesn't seem to address the concept of "orderly worship" for other > Churches in such an intense way. Given the intensity of the discussion for > Corinth, if it had been such a serious concern, I would think it would have > shown up in something like the Letter to the Romans which spends a great > deal of time on theology. Lastly, it just appears that Paul had more to say > to the Corinthians about seemingly "remedial" practices in the Church, that > didn't need further instruction with the other Churches. That being said, > the silence of the subject actually impairs our ability to understand the > full force of his commands. > Just out of curiosity, due to its apparent disrespect, is it > possible-theoretically- that your disdain for people leaving their hats on > during the National Anthem somewhat fuels your disdain for people wearing > hats during service? (or vice versa) > > > On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Robert Long wrote: > > You have tattoos? I'm afraid I'm going to have to look for a new > discussion group... lol! > > I really liked the point about the importance of the church building. We > all know that the church is the people but I think we would also agree (I > think... I know I would anyway) that parts of the Church building itself are > more holy and sacred. This is at an odd juxtaposition with the Overdrive > service I attend - I don't consider the Overdrive facilities particularly > "holy" per se but I would consider the main curch sanctuary as "holy". If a > church service is held at that location isn't it holy? Is is only holy > during church? this brings up all kinds of questions (Should I not wear a > hat around people I go to church with? their the church after all, > right?). I'm going to have to ponder the origins of my thought processes > here. > > On topic though. Thanks for the insight fella's. I also came to the > conclusion that the hat doffing was more cultural than spiritual. I was > hoping you all would read 1 Corinthians 11 and see that it is a little > presumptuous to just take that passage and say hey! - we shouldn't wear hats > in church. There's more going on there, as Mike suggested, and even more > than Mike suggested when you start looking at the issue of headship and what > exactly Paul is referring to - he seems to have a double meaning going. Not > sure I'm comfortable just dismissing the entirety of the Corinthian letters > as only for a specific church because there is some very good stuff in > there. However, there is considerable support that Paul is addressing > specific topics in this specific church rather than outlining how all > churches should be. Don't want to get too sidetracked as I have a point I > want to make - but, in the first letter Paul states woman should be silent > in church while in other places in the NT woman are clearly a part of > worship services. This contradiction can be resolved by saying there were > specific women in the Corinthian church who were a problem. Other aspects, > such as the head covering section, have no contradiction (that I'm aware > of) so are they just for Corinth or for all of us? Well anyway, there are > clearly different ways to run specific churches based on the local culture > or needs - this is seen in scripture This is interesting when you look at > the negative light the splintered church is viewed in. Isn't it possible > that God knew different worship styles would appeal to different types of > people and there is no one specific way church is meant to be run. I think > the answer is yes. > Back to hats for a sec. Once I decided the hat doffing phenomenon was > cultural I started to look into the roots of this practice. Some people say > it is a sign of respect that developed during medieval times when knights > raised their visor so there friends could see their face. I have seen it > noted that it is common Jewish practice to cover one's head when praying > vice uncovering. I also saw it noted that outside of the U.S. no one really > cares about your hat. Ms. Manners tells me its just proper etiquette. > However, some people do think it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. One of the points > I made in class (and I big one I want to make here) relates back to why do > people blame Christians for things we have nothing to do with. One of the > big complaints I see as I putter around message boards and skeptic sites is > that people have a problem with inconsistencies in the observance of the > Christian faith. I already talked about different worship methods above. > Additionally, I think people fail to see that to become a Christian is not > to just to suddenly snap to conformance of some supposed norm. e.g. a new > Christian may have no problem wearing their hat to church but as they mature > they may, depending on how they develop in Christ. The church is made up of > hat wearers and non-hat wearers and this is ok to us but puzzling from the > outside. > Personally, I don't like seeing all the kids running around with hats on > during church but I do like seeing them in church which is clearly more > important. I would hope they are being taught that if they know to take > their hat off during the national anthem (and hopefully they do, but that's > a whole 'nother topic to be sure) its a no-brainer that we take our hat off > when we're worshiping God. As they mature in Christ I suspect many of them > will come to this conclusion on their own without a heavy-handed approach. > > Rob > > > some people feel it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... > > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:13:47 -0500 > > > > > > Rob, > > i just finished reading the article. I can certainly appreciate the > > difficulty that the pastor faced in dealing with the problem. I am > > confident that the real problem was more cultural than it was > > "spiritual", which may prove to be the same in some settings. This > > type of problem surfaces in churches everywhere, just under a > > different description. Perhaps, it is suits and ties as opposed to > > pants and t-shirt. I know that a great number of people disregard my > > opinion on matters due to the fact that I have tattoos or because I > > have a gotee. Often people consider my thoughts to be of little > > consequence due to the fact that I am a "pastor" and what do I really > > know about living life outside of the Church walls. There was only > > one point in the article when it was suggested that it was ".. a sign > > of submission to a higher authority" to remove a person's hat inside > > of the Church building or during prayer at a Graveside Service. It > > seemed to me that wearing the hats had less to do with a "spiritual > > position" and more to do with rebellion. No question that the > > rebellion ultimately was against God and his call for all believers to > > consider the needs of the fellowship as a whole, but that was not > > really conveyed by the Pastor to the family. I have found it > > interesting that such a great deal of emphasis has been placed on the > > "proper things to do in the church building", not necessarily within > > this post, but in general. As if the building truly represented the > > body of Christ as a whole. Paul makes such a strong argument for the > > believer to be identified as the "temple" of God in opposition to a > > building. If everything we do outside of the building is contrary to > > the Law of the Spirit, does it matter if we honor the "rules" inside > > of the building? > > On Oct 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Rob L. wrote: > > > > > > > > In discussing James 4:12 last week I was trying to make a point that > > > if we don't obey a law because we think it is silly we are judging > > > that law. I initially used some driving laws to make my point (a > > > speed limit set to low e.g.) but turned to biblical laws. First let > > > me say that I don't think any of God's laws are silly and believe He > > > has a reason for whatever directives He has set - I was trying to stir > > > up some conversation about why we dismiss some scripture and obey > > > other parts - i.e. are we guilty of judging the law.... I threw out a > > > comment about a friend of all of ours wearing a "do-rag" in church and > > > how as an old-school type church person I didn't particularly care for > > > it; but I acknowledged it seemed like a silly thing to make an issue > > > of even though I know there is some scriptural support for my > > > opinion. WELL!! let me tell you, this opened a can of worms about > > > reaching out to people, and not judging, and freedom in Christ, and > > > all manner of objection and I ended up talking myself into a corner. > > > If you don't know I'm referring to Jim Joyce, and I have related to > > > Jim that he was the object of our discussion and it was as a learning > > > point rather than a protest or complaint. I don't want to come across > > > as gossiping behind Jim's back or anything. The objections were > > > specifically that Jim is reaching out to skaters in the community as > > > part as his ministry to youth and if dressing like them helps them > > > feel more comfortable in a church environment and ultimately brings > > > young people to Christ then who am I to get all "pharisee" on him. > > > It troubled me enough to come back to the issue yesterday and actually > > > we spent the whole class discussing this linked article - > > > http://www.ctlibrary.com/le/1998/spring/8l2054.html > > > It kind of reminded me of the whole "dancing" issue so I thought you > > > guys might find it interesting. In reading it I would encourage you > > > to see the baseball caps as a metaphor for whatever postmodern > > > behavior you think is relevant. Some scripture we referenced included > > > 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 11. I have more to add regarding my > > > own opinions but as always I'd like to see you'alls thoughts before I > > > inject my own bias (anymore than I already have...) > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles CrossPointe Church > Happy are the Beggars > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
