"Christianity is not about a set of behaviors; it is about a transformed heart!" -- John Piper, *Desiring God*
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Robert Johnson < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And something similar should be said about entering sanctuaries, and the > like. > > Bobby > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:27 PM, Robert Johnson < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> What I say here doesn't necessarily conflict with anything anyone has >> said, and it reemphasizes points already made, so I'm not trying to be >> novel. But here is a micro-sermon on the topic that fits the attitude of my >> heart: >> >> Rob, you asked in one of your posts, "How much should the church change to >> reach out to people?" My position is that if the church is focused on >> removing hats to the detriment of the gospel, they should change that. Each >> church I've seen who cares alot about how people dress tends to have a more >> barren outreach. That's a detriment to the gospel. The gospel is about >> changing hearts (internal), not about changing dress (external). >> Accordingly, it seems to me, those who narrowly focus on how someone dresses >> completely miss the point of the gospel message and the exemplary life of >> Jesus, who took no concern of how people dress, but who looked into people's >> hearts. Yes, the point of the gospel is a changed heart towards God and >> others. Perhaps this changed heart will lead to taking off one's hat in >> worship, but never will it lead to requiring people dress a certain way, >> without first looking to the attitude of their heart. So yes, it can be >> appropriate to ask someone to take off their hat -- when it is an expression >> of disrespect for the Lord. But in our culture today, there's nothing >> symbolic or overtly disrespectful about hats or head coverings, I don't >> think. So it's not much of an issue in most churches. Perhaps Paul would >> say today, don't put two middle fingers in the sky when praying or >> prophesying. This is an extreme example, but I wonder if it probes to the >> point: Don't be disrespectful to the Lord when praying or prophesying. >> Bobby >> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> >>> Not placing my hand over my chest. Taking my heart out while >>> metaphorically poignant, is physically disgusting. >>> >>> On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Mike Butler wrote: >>> >>> Rob, I didn't perceive your statements regarding women as any type of >>> ambivalence. I was more interested in your feedback. Here is something I >>> was pondering today: >>> Is there really any part of the building more "sacred" than another? >>> After all, there is only one type of room that has a "throne". I guess I >>> ask this because, I am in favor of removing my hat during prayer, I am not >>> as adamant regarding "patriotic" practices. That being said, other than not >>> placing my heart over my chest, I am typically willing to "honor" our active >>> and fallen soldiers (present and past) without any hesitation in all public >>> forums. I find it interesting that 1 Cor. 11 is often referenced in defense >>> of removing a hat during prayer and when entering the "Sanctuary". There >>> doesn't seem to be any reference to the "location" being sacred, as much as >>> the circumstance is sacred. So my real question is this: Is it biblically >>> supported to remove you hat in a building? We know that the head should be >>> uncovered during worship, but given that in the early church most people >>> worshipped in their homes. Do you think it was expected of the person who >>> owned the home to remove their hat when they entered the house (due to the >>> fact that there weren't many homes with multiple rooms in the first century) >>> during non-worship times? Just curious. >>> >>> On Oct 22, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Robert Long wrote: >>> >>> I downloaded it but haven't listened to it yet. I'll try to today >>> sometime. Thought I'd go ahead and post though. I hope I didn't give an >>> impression that I have some sort of problem with women taking roles in the >>> church. I feel I'm actually pretty moderate on that as I believe there are >>> examples of women having church positions (such as Phoebe the Deaconess >>> mentioned at the end of Romans e.g.). I was just using that Corinthian >>> directive as an example. >>> >>> To answer your question. I see I phrased my conclusion poorly. I >>> don't think it's an if-than type issue. i.e. if we remove our hat during >>> the national anthem; than we should also remove out hat in church. >>> Although, that may be one way to try and present it to a young person who >>> was struggling with the "why?" of the issue. That said, yes I was brought >>> up that way. I wouldn't say it was explained to me but rather I followed >>> the lead of other male figures in my life and was gently chastised by people >>> I respected when I didn't comply through my own forgetfulness vice any sort >>> of rebellion. The issue was further cemented when I joined the military. >>> Disdain seems a strong word but if I honestly reflect on it, it may be >>> accurate. I admit I do notice it and privately don't approve. I wouldn't >>> let my own children wear a hat to church and I suppose if I were in any kind >>> of mentoring role to other young males I would try and gently steer them in >>> that direction as well. I don't see a problem with a do-rag on the skate >>> park or even in the church lobby but it doesn't sit right with me to see it >>> in the church sanctuary during worship and prayer times. But that's just >>> me, and I wouldn't presume to judge. That is to say, I can separate the >>> cultural issue from the spiritual one. >>> A follow on question to you guys would be: which do you think is more >>> acceptable; asking someone to remove their hat during the national >>> anthem or asking them to remove it before we pray? >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... >>> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:28:06 -0500 >>> >>> Rob, >>> We just did a podcast on the role of women in the Church. You should >>> listen to it if you get a chance. >>> http://www.sermonconnect.com/search_result.php?keyword=mike+butler&searchtype=general&searchby=speaker&Find=Find >>> >>> I really wanted to discuss the significance of the "head covering" in >>> worship, but I wasn't sure it was necessary in the context of the post. I >>> may not have been entirely clear on my opinion regarding the Corinthian >>> Church. I believe that what Paul wrote to that Church was significant then >>> and is still significant to us today, just for different reasons. I think >>> the other necessary component to properly interpreting these passages, have >>> to do with their association with other passages from Paul specifically. >>> Paul doesn't seem to address the concept of "orderly worship" for other >>> Churches in such an intense way. Given the intensity of the discussion for >>> Corinth, if it had been such a serious concern, I would think it would have >>> shown up in something like the Letter to the Romans which spends a great >>> deal of time on theology. Lastly, it just appears that Paul had more to say >>> to the Corinthians about seemingly "remedial" practices in the Church, that >>> didn't need further instruction with the other Churches. That being said, >>> the silence of the subject actually impairs our ability to understand the >>> full force of his commands. >>> Just out of curiosity, due to its apparent disrespect, is it >>> possible-theoretically- that your disdain for people leaving their hats on >>> during the National Anthem somewhat fuels your disdain for people wearing >>> hats during service? (or vice versa) >>> >>> >>> On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Robert Long wrote: >>> >>> You have tattoos? I'm afraid I'm going to have to look for a new >>> discussion group... lol! >>> >>> I really liked the point about the importance of the church building. We >>> all know that the church is the people but I think we would also agree (I >>> think... I know I would anyway) that parts of the Church building itself are >>> more holy and sacred. This is at an odd juxtaposition with the Overdrive >>> service I attend - I don't consider the Overdrive facilities particularly >>> "holy" per se but I would consider the main curch sanctuary as "holy". If a >>> church service is held at that location isn't it holy? Is is only holy >>> during church? this brings up all kinds of questions (Should I not wear a >>> hat around people I go to church with? their the church after all, >>> right?). I'm going to have to ponder the origins of my thought processes >>> here. >>> >>> On topic though. Thanks for the insight fella's. I also came to the >>> conclusion that the hat doffing was more cultural than spiritual. I was >>> hoping you all would read 1 Corinthians 11 and see that it is a little >>> presumptuous to just take that passage and say hey! - we shouldn't wear hats >>> in church. There's more going on there, as Mike suggested, and even more >>> than Mike suggested when you start looking at the issue of headship and what >>> exactly Paul is referring to - he seems to have a double meaning going. Not >>> sure I'm comfortable just dismissing the entirety of the Corinthian letters >>> as only for a specific church because there is some very good stuff in >>> there. However, there is considerable support that Paul is addressing >>> specific topics in this specific church rather than outlining how all >>> churches should be. Don't want to get too sidetracked as I have a point I >>> want to make - but, in the first letter Paul states woman should be silent >>> in church while in other places in the NT woman are clearly a part of >>> worship services. This contradiction can be resolved by saying there were >>> specific women in the Corinthian church who were a problem. Other aspects, >>> such as the head covering section, have no contradiction (that I'm aware >>> of) so are they just for Corinth or for all of us? Well anyway, there are >>> clearly different ways to run specific churches based on the local culture >>> or needs - this is seen in scripture This is interesting when you look at >>> the negative light the splintered church is viewed in. Isn't it possible >>> that God knew different worship styles would appeal to different types of >>> people and there is no one specific way church is meant to be run. I think >>> the answer is yes. >>> Back to hats for a sec. Once I decided the hat doffing phenomenon was >>> cultural I started to look into the roots of this practice. Some people say >>> it is a sign of respect that developed during medieval times when knights >>> raised their visor so there friends could see their face. I have seen it >>> noted that it is common Jewish practice to cover one's head when praying >>> vice uncovering. I also saw it noted that outside of the U.S. no one really >>> cares about your hat. Ms. Manners tells me its just proper etiquette. >>> However, some people do think it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. One of the points >>> I made in class (and I big one I want to make here) relates back to why do >>> people blame Christians for things we have nothing to do with. One of the >>> big complaints I see as I putter around message boards and skeptic sites is >>> that people have a problem with inconsistencies in the observance of the >>> Christian faith. I already talked about different worship methods above. >>> Additionally, I think people fail to see that to become a Christian is not >>> to just to suddenly snap to conformance of some supposed norm. e.g. a new >>> Christian may have no problem wearing their hat to church but as they mature >>> they may, depending on how they develop in Christ. The church is made up of >>> hat wearers and non-hat wearers and this is ok to us but puzzling from the >>> outside. >>> Personally, I don't like seeing all the kids running around with hats on >>> during church but I do like seeing them in church which is clearly more >>> important. I would hope they are being taught that if they know to take >>> their hat off during the national anthem (and hopefully they do, but that's >>> a whole 'nother topic to be sure) its a no-brainer that we take our hat off >>> when we're worshiping God. As they mature in Christ I suspect many of them >>> will come to this conclusion on their own without a heavy-handed approach. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> some people feel it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. >>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... >>> > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:13:47 -0500 >>> > >>> > >>> > Rob, >>> > i just finished reading the article. I can certainly appreciate the >>> > difficulty that the pastor faced in dealing with the problem. I am >>> > confident that the real problem was more cultural than it was >>> > "spiritual", which may prove to be the same in some settings. This >>> > type of problem surfaces in churches everywhere, just under a >>> > different description. Perhaps, it is suits and ties as opposed to >>> > pants and t-shirt. I know that a great number of people disregard my >>> > opinion on matters due to the fact that I have tattoos or because I >>> > have a gotee. Often people consider my thoughts to be of little >>> > consequence due to the fact that I am a "pastor" and what do I really >>> > know about living life outside of the Church walls. There was only >>> > one point in the article when it was suggested that it was ".. a sign >>> > of submission to a higher authority" to remove a person's hat inside >>> > of the Church building or during prayer at a Graveside Service. It >>> > seemed to me that wearing the hats had less to do with a "spiritual >>> > position" and more to do with rebellion. No question that the >>> > rebellion ultimately was against God and his call for all believers to >>> >>> > consider the needs of the fellowship as a whole, but that was not >>> > really conveyed by the Pastor to the family. I have found it >>> > interesting that such a great deal of emphasis has been placed on the >>> > "proper things to do in the church building", not necessarily within >>> > this post, but in general. As if the building truly represented the >>> > body of Christ as a whole. Paul makes such a strong argument for the >>> > believer to be identified as the "temple" of God in opposition to a >>> > building. If everything we do outside of the building is contrary to >>> > the Law of the Spirit, does it matter if we honor the "rules" inside >>> > of the building? >>> > On Oct 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Rob L. wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > > In discussing James 4:12 last week I was trying to make a point that >>> > > if we don't obey a law because we think it is silly we are judging >>> > > that law. I initially used some driving laws to make my point (a >>> > > speed limit set to low e.g.) but turned to biblical laws. First let >>> > > me say that I don't think any of God's laws are silly and believe He >>> > > has a reason for whatever directives He has set - I was trying to >>> stir >>> > > up some conversation about why we dismiss some scripture and obey >>> > > other parts - i.e. are we guilty of judging the law.... I threw out a >>> > > comment about a friend of all of ours wearing a "do-rag" in church >>> and >>> > > how as an old-school type church person I didn't particularly care >>> for >>> > > it; but I acknowledged it seemed like a silly thing to make an issue >>> > > of even though I know there is some scriptural support for my >>> > > opinion. WELL!! let me tell you, this opened a can of worms about >>> > > reaching out to people, and not judging, and freedom in Christ, and >>> > > all manner of objection and I ended up talking myself into a corner. >>> > > If you don't know I'm referring to Jim Joyce, and I have related to >>> > > Jim that he was the object of our discussion and it was as a learning >>> > > point rather than a protest or complaint. I don't want to come across >>> > > as gossiping behind Jim's back or anything. The objections were >>> > > specifically that Jim is reaching out to skaters in the community as >>> > > part as his ministry to youth and if dressing like them helps them >>> > > feel more comfortable in a church environment and ultimately brings >>> > > young people to Christ then who am I to get all "pharisee" on him. >>> > > It troubled me enough to come back to the issue yesterday and >>> actually >>> > > we spent the whole class discussing this linked article - >>> > > http://www.ctlibrary.com/le/1998/spring/8l2054.html >>> > > It kind of reminded me of the whole "dancing" issue so I thought you >>> > > guys might find it interesting. In reading it I would encourage you >>> > > to see the baseball caps as a metaphor for whatever postmodern >>> > > behavior you think is relevant. Some scripture we referenced included >>> > > 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 11. I have more to add regarding my >>> > > own opinions but as always I'd like to see you'alls thoughts before I >>> > > inject my own bias (anymore than I already have...) >>> > > >>> > > Rob >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles CrossPointe Church >>> Happy are the Beggars >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
