And something similar should be said about entering sanctuaries, and the like.
Bobby On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:27 PM, Robert Johnson < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What I say here doesn't necessarily conflict with anything anyone has said, > and it reemphasizes points already made, so I'm not trying to be novel. But > here is a micro-sermon on the topic that fits the attitude of my heart: > > Rob, you asked in one of your posts, "How much should the church change to > reach out to people?" My position is that if the church is focused on > removing hats to the detriment of the gospel, they should change that. Each > church I've seen who cares alot about how people dress tends to have a more > barren outreach. That's a detriment to the gospel. The gospel is about > changing hearts (internal), not about changing dress (external). > Accordingly, it seems to me, those who narrowly focus on how someone dresses > completely miss the point of the gospel message and the exemplary life of > Jesus, who took no concern of how people dress, but who looked into people's > hearts. Yes, the point of the gospel is a changed heart towards God and > others. Perhaps this changed heart will lead to taking off one's hat in > worship, but never will it lead to requiring people dress a certain way, > without first looking to the attitude of their heart. So yes, it can be > appropriate to ask someone to take off their hat -- when it is an expression > of disrespect for the Lord. But in our culture today, there's nothing > symbolic or overtly disrespectful about hats or head coverings, I don't > think. So it's not much of an issue in most churches. Perhaps Paul would > say today, don't put two middle fingers in the sky when praying or > prophesying. This is an extreme example, but I wonder if it probes to the > point: Don't be disrespectful to the Lord when praying or prophesying. > Bobby > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> Not placing my hand over my chest. Taking my heart out while >> metaphorically poignant, is physically disgusting. >> >> On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Mike Butler wrote: >> >> Rob, I didn't perceive your statements regarding women as any type of >> ambivalence. I was more interested in your feedback. Here is something I >> was pondering today: >> Is there really any part of the building more "sacred" than another? >> After all, there is only one type of room that has a "throne". I guess I >> ask this because, I am in favor of removing my hat during prayer, I am not >> as adamant regarding "patriotic" practices. That being said, other than not >> placing my heart over my chest, I am typically willing to "honor" our active >> and fallen soldiers (present and past) without any hesitation in all public >> forums. I find it interesting that 1 Cor. 11 is often referenced in defense >> of removing a hat during prayer and when entering the "Sanctuary". There >> doesn't seem to be any reference to the "location" being sacred, as much as >> the circumstance is sacred. So my real question is this: Is it biblically >> supported to remove you hat in a building? We know that the head should be >> uncovered during worship, but given that in the early church most people >> worshipped in their homes. Do you think it was expected of the person who >> owned the home to remove their hat when they entered the house (due to the >> fact that there weren't many homes with multiple rooms in the first century) >> during non-worship times? Just curious. >> >> On Oct 22, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Robert Long wrote: >> >> I downloaded it but haven't listened to it yet. I'll try to today >> sometime. Thought I'd go ahead and post though. I hope I didn't give an >> impression that I have some sort of problem with women taking roles in the >> church. I feel I'm actually pretty moderate on that as I believe there are >> examples of women having church positions (such as Phoebe the Deaconess >> mentioned at the end of Romans e.g.). I was just using that Corinthian >> directive as an example. >> >> To answer your question. I see I phrased my conclusion poorly. I >> don't think it's an if-than type issue. i.e. if we remove our hat during >> the national anthem; than we should also remove out hat in church. >> Although, that may be one way to try and present it to a young person who >> was struggling with the "why?" of the issue. That said, yes I was brought >> up that way. I wouldn't say it was explained to me but rather I followed >> the lead of other male figures in my life and was gently chastised by people >> I respected when I didn't comply through my own forgetfulness vice any sort >> of rebellion. The issue was further cemented when I joined the military. >> Disdain seems a strong word but if I honestly reflect on it, it may be >> accurate. I admit I do notice it and privately don't approve. I wouldn't >> let my own children wear a hat to church and I suppose if I were in any kind >> of mentoring role to other young males I would try and gently steer them in >> that direction as well. I don't see a problem with a do-rag on the skate >> park or even in the church lobby but it doesn't sit right with me to see it >> in the church sanctuary during worship and prayer times. But that's just >> me, and I wouldn't presume to judge. That is to say, I can separate the >> cultural issue from the spiritual one. >> A follow on question to you guys would be: which do you think is more >> acceptable; asking someone to remove their hat during the national >> anthem or asking them to remove it before we pray? >> >> Rob >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... >> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:28:06 -0500 >> >> Rob, >> We just did a podcast on the role of women in the Church. You should >> listen to it if you get a chance. >> http://www.sermonconnect.com/search_result.php?keyword=mike+butler&searchtype=general&searchby=speaker&Find=Find >> >> I really wanted to discuss the significance of the "head covering" in >> worship, but I wasn't sure it was necessary in the context of the post. I >> may not have been entirely clear on my opinion regarding the Corinthian >> Church. I believe that what Paul wrote to that Church was significant then >> and is still significant to us today, just for different reasons. I think >> the other necessary component to properly interpreting these passages, have >> to do with their association with other passages from Paul specifically. >> Paul doesn't seem to address the concept of "orderly worship" for other >> Churches in such an intense way. Given the intensity of the discussion for >> Corinth, if it had been such a serious concern, I would think it would have >> shown up in something like the Letter to the Romans which spends a great >> deal of time on theology. Lastly, it just appears that Paul had more to say >> to the Corinthians about seemingly "remedial" practices in the Church, that >> didn't need further instruction with the other Churches. That being said, >> the silence of the subject actually impairs our ability to understand the >> full force of his commands. >> Just out of curiosity, due to its apparent disrespect, is it >> possible-theoretically- that your disdain for people leaving their hats on >> during the National Anthem somewhat fuels your disdain for people wearing >> hats during service? (or vice versa) >> >> >> On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Robert Long wrote: >> >> You have tattoos? I'm afraid I'm going to have to look for a new >> discussion group... lol! >> >> I really liked the point about the importance of the church building. We >> all know that the church is the people but I think we would also agree (I >> think... I know I would anyway) that parts of the Church building itself are >> more holy and sacred. This is at an odd juxtaposition with the Overdrive >> service I attend - I don't consider the Overdrive facilities particularly >> "holy" per se but I would consider the main curch sanctuary as "holy". If a >> church service is held at that location isn't it holy? Is is only holy >> during church? this brings up all kinds of questions (Should I not wear a >> hat around people I go to church with? their the church after all, >> right?). I'm going to have to ponder the origins of my thought processes >> here. >> >> On topic though. Thanks for the insight fella's. I also came to the >> conclusion that the hat doffing was more cultural than spiritual. I was >> hoping you all would read 1 Corinthians 11 and see that it is a little >> presumptuous to just take that passage and say hey! - we shouldn't wear hats >> in church. There's more going on there, as Mike suggested, and even more >> than Mike suggested when you start looking at the issue of headship and what >> exactly Paul is referring to - he seems to have a double meaning going. Not >> sure I'm comfortable just dismissing the entirety of the Corinthian letters >> as only for a specific church because there is some very good stuff in >> there. However, there is considerable support that Paul is addressing >> specific topics in this specific church rather than outlining how all >> churches should be. Don't want to get too sidetracked as I have a point I >> want to make - but, in the first letter Paul states woman should be silent >> in church while in other places in the NT woman are clearly a part of >> worship services. This contradiction can be resolved by saying there were >> specific women in the Corinthian church who were a problem. Other aspects, >> such as the head covering section, have no contradiction (that I'm aware >> of) so are they just for Corinth or for all of us? Well anyway, there are >> clearly different ways to run specific churches based on the local culture >> or needs - this is seen in scripture This is interesting when you look at >> the negative light the splintered church is viewed in. Isn't it possible >> that God knew different worship styles would appeal to different types of >> people and there is no one specific way church is meant to be run. I think >> the answer is yes. >> Back to hats for a sec. Once I decided the hat doffing phenomenon was >> cultural I started to look into the roots of this practice. Some people say >> it is a sign of respect that developed during medieval times when knights >> raised their visor so there friends could see their face. I have seen it >> noted that it is common Jewish practice to cover one's head when praying >> vice uncovering. I also saw it noted that outside of the U.S. no one really >> cares about your hat. Ms. Manners tells me its just proper etiquette. >> However, some people do think it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. One of the points >> I made in class (and I big one I want to make here) relates back to why do >> people blame Christians for things we have nothing to do with. One of the >> big complaints I see as I putter around message boards and skeptic sites is >> that people have a problem with inconsistencies in the observance of the >> Christian faith. I already talked about different worship methods above. >> Additionally, I think people fail to see that to become a Christian is not >> to just to suddenly snap to conformance of some supposed norm. e.g. a new >> Christian may have no problem wearing their hat to church but as they mature >> they may, depending on how they develop in Christ. The church is made up of >> hat wearers and non-hat wearers and this is ok to us but puzzling from the >> outside. >> Personally, I don't like seeing all the kids running around with hats on >> during church but I do like seeing them in church which is clearly more >> important. I would hope they are being taught that if they know to take >> their hat off during the national anthem (and hopefully they do, but that's >> a whole 'nother topic to be sure) its a no-brainer that we take our hat off >> when we're worshiping God. As they mature in Christ I suspect many of them >> will come to this conclusion on their own without a heavy-handed approach. >> >> Rob >> >> >> some people feel it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... >> > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:13:47 -0500 >> > >> > >> > Rob, >> > i just finished reading the article. I can certainly appreciate the >> > difficulty that the pastor faced in dealing with the problem. I am >> > confident that the real problem was more cultural than it was >> > "spiritual", which may prove to be the same in some settings. This >> > type of problem surfaces in churches everywhere, just under a >> > different description. Perhaps, it is suits and ties as opposed to >> > pants and t-shirt. I know that a great number of people disregard my >> > opinion on matters due to the fact that I have tattoos or because I >> > have a gotee. Often people consider my thoughts to be of little >> > consequence due to the fact that I am a "pastor" and what do I really >> > know about living life outside of the Church walls. There was only >> > one point in the article when it was suggested that it was ".. a sign >> > of submission to a higher authority" to remove a person's hat inside >> > of the Church building or during prayer at a Graveside Service. It >> > seemed to me that wearing the hats had less to do with a "spiritual >> > position" and more to do with rebellion. No question that the >> > rebellion ultimately was against God and his call for all believers to >> > consider the needs of the fellowship as a whole, but that was not >> > really conveyed by the Pastor to the family. I have found it >> > interesting that such a great deal of emphasis has been placed on the >> > "proper things to do in the church building", not necessarily within >> > this post, but in general. As if the building truly represented the >> > body of Christ as a whole. Paul makes such a strong argument for the >> > believer to be identified as the "temple" of God in opposition to a >> > building. If everything we do outside of the building is contrary to >> > the Law of the Spirit, does it matter if we honor the "rules" inside >> > of the building? >> > On Oct 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Rob L. wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > In discussing James 4:12 last week I was trying to make a point that >> > > if we don't obey a law because we think it is silly we are judging >> > > that law. I initially used some driving laws to make my point (a >> > > speed limit set to low e.g.) but turned to biblical laws. First let >> > > me say that I don't think any of God's laws are silly and believe He >> > > has a reason for whatever directives He has set - I was trying to stir >> > > up some conversation about why we dismiss some scripture and obey >> > > other parts - i.e. are we guilty of judging the law.... I threw out a >> > > comment about a friend of all of ours wearing a "do-rag" in church and >> > > how as an old-school type church person I didn't particularly care for >> > > it; but I acknowledged it seemed like a silly thing to make an issue >> > > of even though I know there is some scriptural support for my >> > > opinion. WELL!! let me tell you, this opened a can of worms about >> > > reaching out to people, and not judging, and freedom in Christ, and >> > > all manner of objection and I ended up talking myself into a corner. >> > > If you don't know I'm referring to Jim Joyce, and I have related to >> > > Jim that he was the object of our discussion and it was as a learning >> > > point rather than a protest or complaint. I don't want to come across >> > > as gossiping behind Jim's back or anything. The objections were >> > > specifically that Jim is reaching out to skaters in the community as >> > > part as his ministry to youth and if dressing like them helps them >> > > feel more comfortable in a church environment and ultimately brings >> > > young people to Christ then who am I to get all "pharisee" on him. >> > > It troubled me enough to come back to the issue yesterday and actually >> > > we spent the whole class discussing this linked article - >> > > http://www.ctlibrary.com/le/1998/spring/8l2054.html >> > > It kind of reminded me of the whole "dancing" issue so I thought you >> > > guys might find it interesting. In reading it I would encourage you >> > > to see the baseball caps as a metaphor for whatever postmodern >> > > behavior you think is relevant. Some scripture we referenced included >> > > 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 11. I have more to add regarding my >> > > own opinions but as always I'd like to see you'alls thoughts before I >> > > inject my own bias (anymore than I already have...) >> > > >> > > Rob >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles CrossPointe Church >> Happy are the Beggars >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
