Not placing my hand over my chest. Taking my heart out while metaphorically poignant, is physically disgusting.
On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Mike Butler wrote: > Rob, > I didn't perceive your statements regarding women as any type of > ambivalence. I was more interested in your feedback. Here is > something I was pondering today: > Is there really any part of the building more "sacred" than > another? After all, there is only one type of room that has a > "throne". I guess I ask this because, I am in favor of removing my > hat during prayer, I am not as adamant regarding "patriotic" > practices. That being said, other than not placing my heart over my > chest, I am typically willing to "honor" our active and fallen > soldiers (present and past) without any hesitation in all public > forums. I find it interesting that 1 Cor. 11 is often referenced in > defense of removing a hat during prayer and when entering the > "Sanctuary". There doesn't seem to be any reference to the > "location" being sacred, as much as the circumstance is sacred. So > my real question is this: Is it biblically supported to remove you > hat in a building? We know that the head should be uncovered during > worship, but given that in the early church most people worshipped > in their homes. Do you think it was expected of the person who > owned the home to remove their hat when they entered the house (due > to the fact that there weren't many homes with multiple rooms in the > first century) during non-worship times? Just curious. > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 11:04 AM, Robert Long wrote: > >> I downloaded it but haven't listened to it yet. I'll try to today >> sometime. Thought I'd go ahead and post though. I hope I didn't >> give an impression that I have some sort of problem with women >> taking roles in the church. I feel I'm actually pretty moderate on >> that as I believe there are examples of women having church >> positions (such as Phoebe the Deaconess mentioned at the end of >> Romans e.g.). I was just using that Corinthian directive as an >> example. >> >> To answer your question. I see I phrased my conclusion poorly. I >> don't think it's an if-than type issue. i.e. if we remove our hat >> during the national anthem; than we should also remove out hat in >> church. Although, that may be one way to try and present it to a >> young person who was struggling with the "why?" of the issue. That >> said, yes I was brought up that way. I wouldn't say it was >> explained to me but rather I followed the lead of other male >> figures in my life and was gently chastised by people I respected >> when I didn't comply through my own forgetfulness vice any sort of >> rebellion. The issue was further cemented when I joined the >> military. Disdain seems a strong word but if I honestly reflect on >> it, it may be accurate. I admit I do notice it and privately don't >> approve. I wouldn't let my own children wear a hat to church and I >> suppose if I were in any kind of mentoring role to other young >> males I would try and gently steer them in that direction as well. >> I don't see a problem with a do-rag on the skate park or even in >> the church lobby but it doesn't sit right with me to see it in the >> church sanctuary during worship and prayer times. But that's just >> me, and I wouldn't presume to judge. That is to say, I can >> separate the cultural issue from the spiritual one. >> A follow on question to you guys would be: which do you think is >> more acceptable; asking someone to remove their hat during the >> national anthem or asking them to remove it before we pray? >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... >> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:28:06 -0500 >> >> Rob, >> We just did a podcast on the role of women in the Church. You >> should listen to it if you get a chance. >> http://www.sermonconnect.com/search_result.php?keyword=mike+butler&searchtype=general&searchby=speaker&Find=Find >> I really wanted to discuss the significance of the "head covering" >> in worship, but I wasn't sure it was necessary in the context of >> the post. I may not have been entirely clear on my opinion >> regarding the Corinthian Church. I believe that what Paul wrote to >> that Church was significant then and is still significant to us >> today, just for different reasons. I think the other necessary >> component to properly interpreting these passages, have to do with >> their association with other passages from Paul specifically. Paul >> doesn't seem to address the concept of "orderly worship" for other >> Churches in such an intense way. Given the intensity of the >> discussion for Corinth, if it had been such a serious concern, I >> would think it would have shown up in something like the Letter to >> the Romans which spends a great deal of time on theology. Lastly, >> it just appears that Paul had more to say to the Corinthians about >> seemingly "remedial" practices in the Church, that didn't need >> further instruction with the other Churches. That being said, the >> silence of the subject actually impairs our ability to understand >> the full force of his commands. >> Just out of curiosity, due to its apparent disrespect, is it >> possible-theoretically- that your disdain for people leaving their >> hats on during the National Anthem somewhat fuels your disdain for >> people wearing hats during service? (or vice versa) >> >> >> On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Robert Long wrote: >> >> You have tattoos? I'm afraid I'm going to have to look for a new >> discussion group... lol! >> >> I really liked the point about the importance of the church >> building. We all know that the church is the people but I think we >> would also agree (I think... I know I would anyway) that parts of >> the Church building itself are more holy and sacred. This is at an >> odd juxtaposition with the Overdrive service I attend - I don't >> consider the Overdrive facilities particularly "holy" per se but I >> would consider the main curch sanctuary as "holy". If a church >> service is held at that location isn't it holy? Is is only holy >> during church? this brings up all kinds of questions (Should I not >> wear a hat around people I go to church with? their the church >> after all, right?). I'm going to have to ponder the origins of my >> thought processes here. >> >> On topic though. Thanks for the insight fella's. I also came to >> the conclusion that the hat doffing was more cultural than >> spiritual. I was hoping you all would read 1 Corinthians 11 and >> see that it is a little presumptuous to just take that passage and >> say hey! - we shouldn't wear hats in church. There's more going on >> there, as Mike suggested, and even more than Mike suggested when >> you start looking at the issue of headship and what exactly Paul is >> referring to - he seems to have a double meaning going. Not sure >> I'm comfortable just dismissing the entirety of the Corinthian >> letters as only for a specific church because there is some very >> good stuff in there. However, there is considerable support that >> Paul is addressing specific topics in this specific church rather >> than outlining how all churches should be. Don't want to get too >> sidetracked as I have a point I want to make - but, in the first >> letter Paul states woman should be silent in church while in other >> places in the NT woman are clearly a part of worship services. >> This contradiction can be resolved by saying there were specific >> women in the Corinthian church who were a problem. Other aspects, >> such as the head covering section, have no contradiction (that I'm >> aware of) so are they just for Corinth or for all of us? Well >> anyway, there are clearly different ways to run specific churches >> based on the local culture or needs - this is seen in scripture >> This is interesting when you look at the negative light the >> splintered church is viewed in. Isn't it possible that God knew >> different worship styles would appeal to different types of people >> and there is no one specific way church is meant to be run. I >> think the answer is yes. >> Back to hats for a sec. Once I decided the hat doffing phenomenon >> was cultural I started to look into the roots of this practice. >> Some people say it is a sign of respect that developed during >> medieval times when knights raised their visor so there friends >> could see their face. I have seen it noted that it is common >> Jewish practice to cover one's head when praying vice uncovering. >> I also saw it noted that outside of the U.S. no one really cares >> about your hat. Ms. Manners tells me its just proper etiquette. >> However, some people do think it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. One of >> the points I made in class (and I big one I want to make here) >> relates back to why do people blame Christians for things we have >> nothing to do with. One of the big complaints I see as I putter >> around message boards and skeptic sites is that people have a >> problem with inconsistencies in the observance of the Christian >> faith. I already talked about different worship methods above. >> Additionally, I think people fail to see that to become a Christian >> is not to just to suddenly snap to conformance of some supposed >> norm. e.g. a new Christian may have no problem wearing their hat >> to church but as they mature they may, depending on how they >> develop in Christ. The church is made up of hat wearers and non- >> hat wearers and this is ok to us but puzzling from the outside. >> Personally, I don't like seeing all the kids running around with >> hats on during church but I do like seeing them in church which is >> clearly more important. I would hope they are being taught that if >> they know to take their hat off during the national anthem (and >> hopefully they do, but that's a whole 'nother topic to be sure) its >> a no-brainer that we take our hat off when we're worshiping God. >> As they mature in Christ I suspect many of them will come to this >> conclusion on their own without a heavy-handed approach. >> >> Rob >> >> >> some people feel it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars... >> > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:13:47 -0500 >> > >> > >> > Rob, >> > i just finished reading the article. I can certainly appreciate the >> > difficulty that the pastor faced in dealing with the problem. I am >> > confident that the real problem was more cultural than it was >> > "spiritual", which may prove to be the same in some settings. This >> > type of problem surfaces in churches everywhere, just under a >> > different description. Perhaps, it is suits and ties as opposed to >> > pants and t-shirt. I know that a great number of people disregard >> my >> > opinion on matters due to the fact that I have tattoos or because I >> > have a gotee. Often people consider my thoughts to be of little >> > consequence due to the fact that I am a "pastor" and what do I >> really >> > know about living life outside of the Church walls. There was only >> > one point in the article when it was suggested that it was ".. a >> sign >> > of submission to a higher authority" to remove a person's hat >> inside >> > of the Church building or during prayer at a Graveside Service. It >> > seemed to me that wearing the hats had less to do with a "spiritual >> > position" and more to do with rebellion. No question that the >> > rebellion ultimately was against God and his call for all >> believers to >> > consider the needs of the fellowship as a whole, but that was not >> > really conveyed by the Pastor to the family. I have found it >> > interesting that such a great deal of emphasis has been placed on >> the >> > "proper things to do in the church building", not necessarily >> within >> > this post, but in general. As if the building truly represented the >> > body of Christ as a whole. Paul makes such a strong argument for >> the >> > believer to be identified as the "temple" of God in opposition to a >> > building. If everything we do outside of the building is contrary >> to >> > the Law of the Spirit, does it matter if we honor the "rules" >> inside >> > of the building? >> > On Oct 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Rob L. wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > In discussing James 4:12 last week I was trying to make a point >> that >> > > if we don't obey a law because we think it is silly we are >> judging >> > > that law. I initially used some driving laws to make my point (a >> > > speed limit set to low e.g.) but turned to biblical laws. First >> let >> > > me say that I don't think any of God's laws are silly and >> believe He >> > > has a reason for whatever directives He has set - I was trying >> to stir >> > > up some conversation about why we dismiss some scripture and obey >> > > other parts - i.e. are we guilty of judging the law.... I threw >> out a >> > > comment about a friend of all of ours wearing a "do-rag" in >> church and >> > > how as an old-school type church person I didn't particularly >> care for >> > > it; but I acknowledged it seemed like a silly thing to make an >> issue >> > > of even though I know there is some scriptural support for my >> > > opinion. WELL!! let me tell you, this opened a can of worms about >> > > reaching out to people, and not judging, and freedom in Christ, >> and >> > > all manner of objection and I ended up talking myself into a >> corner. >> > > If you don't know I'm referring to Jim Joyce, and I have >> related to >> > > Jim that he was the object of our discussion and it was as a >> learning >> > > point rather than a protest or complaint. I don't want to come >> across >> > > as gossiping behind Jim's back or anything. The objections were >> > > specifically that Jim is reaching out to skaters in the >> community as >> > > part as his ministry to youth and if dressing like them helps >> them >> > > feel more comfortable in a church environment and ultimately >> brings >> > > young people to Christ then who am I to get all "pharisee" on >> him. >> > > It troubled me enough to come back to the issue yesterday and >> actually >> > > we spent the whole class discussing this linked article - >> > > http://www.ctlibrary.com/le/1998/spring/8l2054.html >> > > It kind of reminded me of the whole "dancing" issue so I >> thought you >> > > guys might find it interesting. In reading it I would encourage >> you >> > > to see the baseball caps as a metaphor for whatever postmodern >> > > behavior you think is relevant. Some scripture we referenced >> included >> > > 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 11. I have more to add >> regarding my >> > > own opinions but as always I'd like to see you'alls thoughts >> before I >> > > inject my own bias (anymore than I already have...) >> > > >> > > Rob >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > Mike Butler, Minister to College and Singles > CrossPointe Church > Happy are the Beggars > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
