Rob,
We just did a podcast on the role of women in the Church. You should
listen to it if you get a chance.
http://www.sermonconnect.com/search_result.php?keyword=mike+butler&searchtype=general&searchby=speaker&Find=Find
I really wanted to discuss the significance of the "head covering" in
worship, but I wasn't sure it was necessary in the context of the
post. I may not have been entirely clear on my opinion regarding the
Corinthian Church. I believe that what Paul wrote to that Church was
significant then and is still significant to us today, just for
different reasons. I think the other necessary component to properly
interpreting these passages, have to do with their association with
other passages from Paul specifically. Paul doesn't seem to address
the concept of "orderly worship" for other Churches in such an intense
way. Given the intensity of the discussion for Corinth, if it had
been such a serious concern, I would think it would have shown up in
something like the Letter to the Romans which spends a great deal of
time on theology. Lastly, it just appears that Paul had more to say
to the Corinthians about seemingly "remedial" practices in the Church,
that didn't need further instruction with the other Churches. That
being said, the silence of the subject actually impairs our ability to
understand the full force of his commands.
Just out of curiosity, due to its apparent disrespect, is it
possible-theoretically- that your disdain for people leaving their
hats on during the National Anthem somewhat fuels your disdain for
people wearing hats during service? (or vice versa)
On Oct 21, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Robert Long wrote:
> You have tattoos? I'm afraid I'm going to have to look for a new
> discussion group... lol!
>
> I really liked the point about the importance of the church
> building. We all know that the church is the people but I think we
> would also agree (I think... I know I would anyway) that parts of
> the Church building itself are more holy and sacred. This is at an
> odd juxtaposition with the Overdrive service I attend - I don't
> consider the Overdrive facilities particularly "holy" per se but I
> would consider the main curch sanctuary as "holy". If a church
> service is held at that location isn't it holy? Is is only holy
> during church? this brings up all kinds of questions (Should I not
> wear a hat around people I go to church with? their the church
> after all, right?). I'm going to have to ponder the origins of my
> thought processes here.
>
> On topic though. Thanks for the insight fella's. I also came to
> the conclusion that the hat doffing was more cultural than
> spiritual. I was hoping you all would read 1 Corinthians 11 and see
> that it is a little presumptuous to just take that passage and say
> hey! - we shouldn't wear hats in church. There's more going on
> there, as Mike suggested, and even more than Mike suggested when you
> start looking at the issue of headship and what exactly Paul is
> referring to - he seems to have a double meaning going. Not sure
> I'm comfortable just dismissing the entirety of the Corinthian
> letters as only for a specific church because there is some very
> good stuff in there. However, there is considerable support that
> Paul is addressing specific topics in this specific church rather
> than outlining how all churches should be. Don't want to get too
> sidetracked as I have a point I want to make - but, in the first
> letter Paul states woman should be silent in church while in other
> places in the NT woman are clearly a part of worship services. This
> contradiction can be resolved by saying there were specific women in
> the Corinthian church who were a problem. Other aspects, such as
> the head covering section, have no contradiction (that I'm aware of)
> so are they just for Corinth or for all of us? Well anyway, there
> are clearly different ways to run specific churches based on the
> local culture or needs - this is seen in scripture This is
> interesting when you look at the negative light the splintered
> church is viewed in. Isn't it possible that God knew different
> worship styles would appeal to different types of people and there
> is no one specific way church is meant to be run. I think the
> answer is yes.
> Back to hats for a sec. Once I decided the hat doffing phenomenon
> was cultural I started to look into the roots of this practice.
> Some people say it is a sign of respect that developed during
> medieval times when knights raised their visor so there friends
> could see their face. I have seen it noted that it is common Jewish
> practice to cover one's head when praying vice uncovering. I also
> saw it noted that outside of the U.S. no one really cares about your
> hat. Ms. Manners tells me its just proper etiquette. However, some
> people do think it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11. One of the points I made
> in class (and I big one I want to make here) relates back to why do
> people blame Christians for things we have nothing to do with. One
> of the big complaints I see as I putter around message boards and
> skeptic sites is that people have a problem with inconsistencies in
> the observance of the Christian faith. I already talked about
> different worship methods above. Additionally, I think people fail
> to see that to become a Christian is not to just to suddenly snap to
> conformance of some supposed norm. e.g. a new Christian may have no
> problem wearing their hat to church but as they mature they may,
> depending on how they develop in Christ. The church is made up of
> hat wearers and non-hat wearers and this is ok to us but puzzling
> from the outside.
> Personally, I don't like seeing all the kids running around with
> hats on during church but I do like seeing them in church which is
> clearly more important. I would hope they are being taught that if
> they know to take their hat off during the national anthem (and
> hopefully they do, but that's a whole 'nother topic to be sure) its
> a no-brainer that we take our hat off when we're worshiping God. As
> they mature in Christ I suspect many of them will come to this
> conclusion on their own without a heavy-handed approach.
>
> Rob
>
>
> some people feel it is rooted in 1 Cor. 11.
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [crosspointe-discuss] Re: The Baseball Cap Wars...
> > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:13:47 -0500
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> > i just finished reading the article. I can certainly appreciate the
> > difficulty that the pastor faced in dealing with the problem. I am
> > confident that the real problem was more cultural than it was
> > "spiritual", which may prove to be the same in some settings. This
> > type of problem surfaces in churches everywhere, just under a
> > different description. Perhaps, it is suits and ties as opposed to
> > pants and t-shirt. I know that a great number of people disregard my
> > opinion on matters due to the fact that I have tattoos or because I
> > have a gotee. Often people consider my thoughts to be of little
> > consequence due to the fact that I am a "pastor" and what do I
> really
> > know about living life outside of the Church walls. There was only
> > one point in the article when it was suggested that it was ".. a
> sign
> > of submission to a higher authority" to remove a person's hat inside
> > of the Church building or during prayer at a Graveside Service. It
> > seemed to me that wearing the hats had less to do with a "spiritual
> > position" and more to do with rebellion. No question that the
> > rebellion ultimately was against God and his call for all
> believers to
> > consider the needs of the fellowship as a whole, but that was not
> > really conveyed by the Pastor to the family. I have found it
> > interesting that such a great deal of emphasis has been placed on
> the
> > "proper things to do in the church building", not necessarily within
> > this post, but in general. As if the building truly represented the
> > body of Christ as a whole. Paul makes such a strong argument for the
> > believer to be identified as the "temple" of God in opposition to a
> > building. If everything we do outside of the building is contrary to
> > the Law of the Spirit, does it matter if we honor the "rules" inside
> > of the building?
> > On Oct 20, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Rob L. wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In discussing James 4:12 last week I was trying to make a point
> that
> > > if we don't obey a law because we think it is silly we are judging
> > > that law. I initially used some driving laws to make my point (a
> > > speed limit set to low e.g.) but turned to biblical laws. First
> let
> > > me say that I don't think any of God's laws are silly and
> believe He
> > > has a reason for whatever directives He has set - I was trying
> to stir
> > > up some conversation about why we dismiss some scripture and obey
> > > other parts - i.e. are we guilty of judging the law.... I threw
> out a
> > > comment about a friend of all of ours wearing a "do-rag" in
> church and
> > > how as an old-school type church person I didn't particularly
> care for
> > > it; but I acknowledged it seemed like a silly thing to make an
> issue
> > > of even though I know there is some scriptural support for my
> > > opinion. WELL!! let me tell you, this opened a can of worms about
> > > reaching out to people, and not judging, and freedom in Christ,
> and
> > > all manner of objection and I ended up talking myself into a
> corner.
> > > If you don't know I'm referring to Jim Joyce, and I have related
> to
> > > Jim that he was the object of our discussion and it was as a
> learning
> > > point rather than a protest or complaint. I don't want to come
> across
> > > as gossiping behind Jim's back or anything. The objections were
> > > specifically that Jim is reaching out to skaters in the
> community as
> > > part as his ministry to youth and if dressing like them helps them
> > > feel more comfortable in a church environment and ultimately
> brings
> > > young people to Christ then who am I to get all "pharisee" on him.
> > > It troubled me enough to come back to the issue yesterday and
> actually
> > > we spent the whole class discussing this linked article -
> > > http://www.ctlibrary.com/le/1998/spring/8l2054.html
> > > It kind of reminded me of the whole "dancing" issue so I thought
> you
> > > guys might find it interesting. In reading it I would encourage
> you
> > > to see the baseball caps as a metaphor for whatever postmodern
> > > behavior you think is relevant. Some scripture we referenced
> included
> > > 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 11. I have more to add
> regarding my
> > > own opinions but as always I'd like to see you'alls thoughts
> before I
> > > inject my own bias (anymore than I already have...)
> > >
> > > Rob
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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