-Caveat Lector-
Thank you, Eagle, for the great response!! At last, we have someone on
the list who knows what it's like to be poor in America.
There's a difference between reading about something and actually having
to live it, isn't there? Without getting into too much of my own personal
history, I will only tell you that I know what it's like to live on
subsistence wages....to be on your own in a strange city...hustling for
whatever work is available, and to be exploited by greedy employers. And
I know what's like to live from paycheck to paycheck, and every trip to
the market involves a number of trade-offs: should you buy food or should
you use the money for essentials.. Unless you've been there, no one knows
what that's like.
Like you, I'm critical of "limousine liberals" who love humanity in the
abstract, while they have only contempt for the poor as individuals.
And there's no doubt about it. The poor are unloveable. They're often
ignorant and have poor character. And growing up in some urban
environments, it is a wonder that they're able to survive at all, given
the fact that so much of poverty is generational. I don't have any magic
bullet to cure the dynamic, and I would agree with you that the poor DO
have many, many opportunities to improve themselves. But many of those
ladders into "something better depend" on a variety of factors. IF you
are
in the wrong state, you're in trouble. Being poor in the south is
different from being poor in a northern state where there are some basic
services available. Of course, being poor is hard no matter where you
live, but after having lived in a right-wing laissez faire southern state,
I know that rural poverty can be just as horrible as the inner city kind.
I found your remarks about your work experience particularly enlightening.
In the small rural southern town where I lived for six years, thanks to
"free trade," the textile mills closed down. The owners moved the plants
to the Dominican Republic in order to take advantage of the cheap labor
there. To add insult to injury, forgive the cliche, they asked many of
them to train their Dominican replacements!!! You can imagine what the
economic impact is on a town when its chief employers decide to pull up
stakes and leave. Unlike capital, the people aren't as mobile. Think
about it. Money can be moved in and out of a country with the flick of a
computer switch, but people can't. Workers have homes, mortgages,
commitments to their churches, schools and communities. But clearly, the
way the economic game is played, the people are considered to be
expendable.
And this pattern is being repeated throughout all of America. Here in
Fargo, North Dakota, Somalians, Laotians, South Asians, Russians have been
brought in to work at subsistence level jobs. And the "new" Americans are
not just taking service jobs. At the local university, there's been an
active effort mounted to recruit Taiwanese, Pakistani, Indian professors
for teaching positions. Helping the refugees, of course, are a network of
church-sponsored social services. They help them obtain jobs, work
permits, food stamps, rent subsidies, language instruction, psychological
counseling and evaluation. All of this is taking place in a city that has
THREE THOUSAND Americans (many of them families) living on a permanent
basis in homeless shelters.
Fargo is a medium-sized city, with a largely Norwegian/German population.
Now, the city has a sizeable Muslim population in its midst. On any given
day, you can find individuals wearing saris or the traditional garb of
the middle east. So far, there has been little thought given to the
possible explosive racial/class/cultural conflicts that will ensue, once
the immigrants begin to compete with the local populace for the few good
jobs. Already, we've had a local chapter of the Crips come in from
Chicago in order to try and organize the local black and latino youth.
Racial tensions are already here; but the government/religious/political
establishment has decided, in its infinite wisdom, that the city can
accomodate its share of Kosovo Albanians as well.
Clearly, "free trade" involves a complete restructuring and reorganization
of this society. And what scares me the most is that it looks like our
country is moving rapidly into a fascistic/totalitarian direction that
none of us can stop.
On Sat, 5 Jun 1999, Eagle 1 wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Mr. Turnstall,
> First of all, your assumption that I am mad, is wrong.
> Not at all. As a matter of fact, I am extremely happy to have my
> FREEDOM back. :-))
>
> Secondly...
> I was not quarreling with you . . .
> I was merely commenting, after your previous comments.
>
> Thirdly...
> The government should NOT be providing much of anything, except perhaps,
> a small amount of HELP for a short period of time, and should be
> originating
> not only education, but also providing a springboard, in a job to help
> build
> some self-worth and self-esteem back into people who, as you said, and
> I agree, have been punished and humiliated by these programs...
> (I know. ... been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt). but rather
> providing
> jobs, so that people who do want a chance to get off the program have an
> opportunity to start earning a living, instead of pleading to hand them a
> living.
>
> Most of these people do not want to be on these programs, but you have
> many factions, including the elitists who WANT people down and out on the
> programs, and this is why you have people such as the liberal democrats
> passing laws, without knowing the real dynamics of poverty... they can
> only
> imagine it, because they have never been in such a situation, nor, shall
> they
> in this life most likely ever experience it. (And too bad... they might
> learn some
> priceless lessons about life, true liberty, and true freedom).
>
> I vary to differ with you about most Americans hating the poor, or the
> working
> class. What would they do without them? No, rather, they love them!
> As long as the poor, the depraved and the working class exist, the elitists
> will play
> corporate and governmental hopscotch across their backs, while they get
> wealthier and wealthier, off the middle class people's dimes. But, lest I
> discount
> American Freedom and the Liberty to pursue happiness and the American Dream,
> it seems there is an alternate solution, leaving capitalism in place,
> without
> bringing liberalism aka: "socialism" to the front of the stage.
> That is why I hire government officials, i.e. by voting them in or out of
> office,
> to maintain some sanity and structure, without the government running every
> aspect of America's private lives.
>
> I worked for a man who is around number 54 in Forbes... who has so much
> money,
> that his great great great grandchildren can live and die without spending
> it all.
> Will he help those workers who have worked their behinds off, by the sweat
> of their brow, and whom he only pays pennies to for work that is worth
> twice
> as much as he pays? NO! He won't. Because there is always someone in
> line who says, "I'll do the job for less pay".
>
> When I was sent back to work, the first time after my injury... most of
> the ethnic
> people who worked there had been replaced with Laocian and Viet Namese. The
> workplace changed so as to incorporate three bulletin boards, instead of
> one; it
> changed to incorporate two break rooms instead of one. Communications
> dropped
> to an all time low, as most of them could not speak English, and we had to
> have
> interpretors come in to speak in their languages when we had meetings. The
> meetings
> took twice as long, and were not nearly as effective. The whole genre of
> the
> area changed, to look as though they were appealing to those who worked for
> less,
> while putting those who had time, and seniority out looking for other jobs,
> and
> for the most part, leaving, as hours were cut, so those who would take
> less and
> work less hours, could replace anyone who might ask for a bit more. This
> owner
> was and still is a slave driver. His empire should reflect a plantation
> house, instead
> of the building looming on the skyline as something out of Star Wars.
>
> I was injured at work, while also going to college. THIS is why I was told
> to
> take these programs. I must say though,
> my children had the best doctors, all the best medical/dental coverage
> possible, and they never had an empty cabinet or refrigerator. Clothes,
> were
> mostly second hand. (Freebies from the local thrift store, who had a give
> away day,
> because after utility bills were paid, we had no 'luxury' money). Often we
> didn't even
> have enough to buy personal products or disinfectants, including soap,
> except
> once a month, the thrift store might have some in stock, but it was rare.
>
> And you bet I have a quarrel with the government. I've placed my
> complaints,
> and I am getting action. They don't want their internal dirty laundry
> exposed.
>
> I still say, that if I can buckle down, bail out of government programs
> with an
> injury, anyone can.
>
> And like I said, when we get some sanity in the White House, and in the
> other
> branches... we might see some reverse in poverty and depravity.
> I do agree with you though...
> >>> We could have such a system, but we would have to reverse about
> thirty-five years of misguided economic/social policies...policies pushed
> by BOTH political parties.<<<
>
> eagle1
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Hugh Tunstall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [CTRL] Say "NO" To Socialized Health Care Today!
>
>
> > -Caveat Lector-
> >
> >Eagle,
> >I don't quite understand the post. You're mad because the system does an
> >inadequate job of helping people? I would agree. Whenever this government
> >tries to help people, it does a miserable job. Why? Because in case you
> >haven't noticed, for the most part, Americans, in general, hate the poor
> >and the working class.
> >
> >I can prove my point quite easily. The average worker in 1999 earns LESS
> >than she did in 1978. The wages of American working men and women have
> >fallen during the past twenty-five years, while the income of the top ten
> >percent have experienced a phenomenal increase that is unprecedented in
> >terms of American economic history. If you look at every other
> >industrialized nation in the developed world, none of them have
> >experienced this kind of widening gap between the haves and have-nots.
> >And what has our reactionary corporate dominated government done in
> >response to the economic downturn for the bottom eighty percent of the
> >American population? Worse than nothing. The social safety net has
> >been dismantled.
> >
> >The welfare system in America is designed to be punitive and humiliating,
> >not helpful. Surely, you realize this. The whole
> >purpose of the welfare system is designed to get people back into the
> >workforce. Also, do you really believe it's accidental that the country
> >is constantly flooded with millions of illegal aliens and refugees to
> >be added to the surplus labor pool? Poverty must be maintained, supported
> >and institutionalized in our nation. Poverty and human misery is good for
> >business. If people are desperate enough, they'll work for anything, do
> >anything to stay alive. Your quarrel is not with me, Eagle, but with our
> >system.
> >
> >I want a government that takes
> >into account the best economic interests of its citizens. And you know
> >what? We could have such a system, but we would have to reverse about
> >thirty-five years of misguided economic/social policies...policies pushed
> >by BOTH political parties.
>
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==========
> CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
> screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters
> and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
> frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
> spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
> gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
> be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
> nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
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> Om
>
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==========
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
========================================================================
Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
========================================================================
To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om
