Hi Christoph, all. just a quick comment: I really like the design - but the metaphor for templates is not convincing and does not work in small sizes. I would again like to bring in the idea of inverting the icon, which is as close to the mental model of a template (german: Schablone, Schema) as my mind brings me atm.
Best, Björn Am Freitag, 7. Januar 2011, 22:03:44 schrieb Mirek M.: > Hi Bernhard, Christoph, everyone, > > 2011/1/7 Bernhard Dippold <[email protected]> > > > Hi Christoph, all > > > > thank you all for the iterative improvement of our icons - the present > > version looks great! > > > > Christoph Noack schrieb: > > Hi Mirek, all! > > > >> Thanks for the feedback ... you may add some more, please :-) > >> > >> Am Donnerstag, den 06.01.2011, 19:35 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.: > >>> 2011/1/6 Christoph Noack<[email protected]> > >> > >> [...] > >> > >>> What do you think, might that work? > >>> > >>> > >>> Here's my feedback: > >>> I really like the colors in this iteration -- much more calming and > >>> refined > >>> than initially. I also love the template symbolism. > >> > >> Thanks - especially in this case it seems, that some more people (and > >> thus, some more iterations) really help to improve the outcome.# > >> > > :-) > > : > >> The document symbolism I'm not so sure about -- the more complex and > >> less > >> > >>> distinct these symbols get, the less quickly a user can distinguish > >>> between > >>> them (just compare the icons for Adobe's CS 2 and CS 3). But as long > >>> as > >>> the > >>> other icons stay relatively simple and distinctive enough, this > >>> change is okay. > > > > Adding more details is okay for larger scales while especially small > > icons should keep very distinct and stylized symbols. > > > > I think it is hard to differ between template and document especially in > > 16px size and high contrast icons, because it's just the left border, > > that has a slightly bumpier design. > > +1 > > > I don't know how to add more differences between them - as Bj�rn already > > mentioned: Color distinction is not enough (and the different colors > > lose > > their contrast in the small icons). > > > > Perhaps we should remove the blue pixels at the left border in the 16px > > icons? > > > > Please contribute your ideas! > > I think it'd be OK to bring back the gray borders to the icons, like they > used to have. > Alternatively, one thing that could be done is to use dotted lines in the > document symbols -- to represent that it's not a finished document, but > rather a blueprint. > > >> [...] > >> > >> Concerning the idea / thoughts of the symbolism: Initially, I thought > >> we > >> can simply re-use the established items of the Galaxy MIME type icons > >> - > >> but then it looks rather strange for larger icons (e.g. the Draw > >> symbol). On the other hand, the ODF icons are very subtle and detailed > >> - > >> so (in my opinion) they lack some good differentiation. Consequently, > >> in > >> my proposals, I tried to balance these requirements. > >> > >> From my point-of-view, the best size to work / analyze the symbolism > >> are > >> > >> the 32px and 16px versions. The "upscaled" versions are simply > >> enhanced > >> by some more detail ... although the current LibreOffice branding > >> tries > >> to be rather clean and simple (even having some strong strokes, ...). > > > > I didn't took the strong lines of the TDF logo into account, leading to > > detailed icons with much stronger border. Your version is much more > > consistent! > > > >> Although I am not fully happy with it, here is a the Calc version: > >> http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/01/icon-as-con-i-can-2.html > > > > It gives too much weight on the chart in my eyes - perhaps because it is > > not part of the spreadsheet? > > +1 > I think the icon could do without a chart entirely, be just a table (I mean, > that's what it's basically intended for, collecting data, whereas Impress, > Writer, and Draw are more for the visual presentation of data). > > > Would it be reasonable to use a different type of chart (lines?) than > > the > > one we use for Chart itself? > > > >> One thing that I would rather do without is the shadow below the > >> icon (in > >> > >>> the default icons). Most operating systems add their own shadows > >>> and/or > >>> reflections to icons, and when these icons have their own shadows > >>> too, it just adds to the mess of effects that there are. > >> > >> Mmh, to be honest, I simply re-used what I knew about the Tango > >> Icons ... usually they add some subtle shadow below the icons. But > >> this > >> may be wrong, although it (already) would cause a lot of effort to > >> remove it. > >> > >> What kind of operating systems might be problematic - Windows, Mac, > >> ... > > > > I never saw automatically added shadow at Windows (perhaps this changed > > with Windows7)- for Mac I don't know. > > Sorry, mistake on my part. > What I wanted to say was that default icons in various operating systems and > software use different angles of shadow if they use shadow at all, so you > can have 10 application icons next to each other and each of them might > have a shadow under a different light source. > Here are icon guidelines for GNOME, Tango, Mac OS, and Windows XP, > respectively: > http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/icons-style.html.en, > http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines, > http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Concept > ual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIcons/XHIGIcons.html , > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms997636.aspx > > Plus Mac OS X really does cast its own shadow sometimes (with a light source > being where the user is), as well as reflection. Certain Linux docks do the > same. > > > But there are different shadow requirements, if icons are meant to be > > integrated in different OS. Apple recommends different position sun and > > a > > different texture of the icons from Tango for example. > > > >> Another thing: the text in > >> > >>> the default icons seems a bit crammed at the bottom, perhaps because > >>> of > >>> the > >>> shadow below the icon or the margin, as the high contrast icons > >>> don't > >>> seem > >>> to have this problem. > >> > >> Good observation :-) The HC icons are not that problematic here, since > >> I've enlarged them a bit to the bottom (instead of using a shadow - > >> doesn't make much sense for HC icons). Thus, we've gained a bit space > >> that helps to let the symbols "breathe" a bit. > > > > The shadow at the smaller icons is nearly invisible. > > What do you think of dropping it for 48px and 32px too - gaining more > > space for the symbols? > > +1 > > >> Removing the other shadows, by preserving the currently used area for > >> the symbols might solve this issue. > >> > >> Lastly, it'd be great if the smaller default icons > >> > >>> lost the landscape symbol, just like the high contrast icons do, > >>> because at > >>> these small sizes, it loses both its meaning and its charm. > >> > >> Well, it seems like a 50:50 decision ;-) In my original design, there > >> wasn#t a landscape picture, but Jaron worked out a good counter > >> proposal ... I simply adapted my set for the default color set, but > >> that > >> won't work (probably) for the HC version. It's easy to rework that ... > > > > At the moment I tend to remove the landscape picture, even if I > > preferred > > Jaron's proposal over your first design. In my opinion the text lines > > become too short and lose their clear symbol language a bit... > > > >> Here was the initial set I was working on: > >> > >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8QbNNW6T8I9QGW7bls2JTg?feat=direc > >> tlink > >> > >> Anyway, great work. It's nice to see the icons progress so well. > >> > >>>> Anybody who might join to bring some life to the rest (quite some > >>>> number) of icons? > >> > >> Mirek, thanks for the great feedback ... since I know your great > >> designs > >> (Citrus& Co.) is there a chance that you might join. > > I'm not a very good designer, trust me. (I'm also relatively new to > Inkscape, having recently switched from Macromedia Fireworks, and am still > getting used to its quirks.) > > Even if I was, January is a very busy time for me (February should be > better). > But I'll definitely be willing to help as much as I can when I have the > time. > > > Thanks form my side too! Time is really short, so we only can create > > good > > > > icons in time, if we can reach the best possible design very soon. > > > > There is still a > > > >> bit hope (for me) that we might have something for the LibO 3.3 > >> release. > > > > Removing the old OOo icons would be great (even if I liked the galaxy > > theme...) - I still think it is possible. > > > > I'd hold up before removing the galaxy theme. I've been using the Tango > > icon theme on Ubuntu for a while now (since that's the only one OOo ships > with), and it's still a bit of a usability pain, as most of the icons have > very low contrast with the background. The icons under drawing are > especially awful: you can barely discern the various shapes and inner shapes > (e.g. smiley face). > It'd be great if sometime down the line LibO had its own set of icons, > perhaps simply a derivative of the Tango icons that fixes the contrast > issues. Before that happens, I'd keep Galaxy as the default (unless there > are issues that would prevent us from doing so). > > > I heard that almost all blockers for the release are resolved, so time > > > >> is running ... I'm currently on vacation, but I'm unable to deliver > >> more > >> than one iteration per day (having some other duties as well). > > > > I'm sorry that I can't help more. > > > > Perhaps during the next days I could start working on one of the other > > icons. > > > > Any proposals? Draw? Math? Macro? > > > >> Shamelessly, I also BCC Thorsten and Nik - I'm not sure whether they > >> are > >> aware of the current discussion. It would also be great to hear their > >> opinions, and maybe we can join all the forces :-) > >> > >> :-) > >> > >> Oh, I totally forgot about that ... I reworked the wiki page a bit and > >> also added the current (messy draft) source file there. The next step > >> is > >> to sum up some of the "what symbol metaphor to use" discussions ... I > >> hope there will be something before I go to bed (and there is not much > >> "today" left *g*). > > > > Good night ;-) > > > > Bernhard > > > > > > -- > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > > [email protected]<design%[email protected]> List > > archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [email protected] List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
