Hi all, the day went by so fast ... so I can assure that I've read your mails, but I am unable to answer in detail. Sorry!
However, I started the table that sums up the discussions / ideas concerning the document symbolism [1]. I also tried to add some facts with regard to the Galaxy and Tango style icons. Please have a look at it, and add you thoughts - if you like ... And thanks for the feedback you already provided - to not lose any of your valuable comments, please bear with me and add them to the wiki page as well [2]. In my point-of-view, short statements serving as reminders would work well. If this won't be possible, I'll try to integrate them within the next days. [1] Document Symbolism http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Initial_MIME_Icons#Document_Symbolism [2] Feedback http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Initial_MIME_Icons#Feedback Enjoy your eveni ... night! Cheers, Christoph Am Freitag, den 07.01.2011, 22:37 +0100 schrieb Björn Balazs: > Hi Christoph, all. > > just a quick comment: I really like the design - but the metaphor for > templates is not convincing and does not work in small sizes. I would again > like to bring in the idea of inverting the icon, which is as close to the > mental model of a template (german: Schablone, Schema) as my mind brings me > atm. > > Best, > Björn > > Am Freitag, 7. Januar 2011, 22:03:44 schrieb Mirek M.: > > Hi Bernhard, Christoph, everyone, > > > > 2011/1/7 Bernhard Dippold <bernh...@familie-dippold.at> > > > > > Hi Christoph, all > > > > > > thank you all for the iterative improvement of our icons - the present > > > version looks great! > > > > > > Christoph Noack schrieb: > > > Hi Mirek, all! > > > > > >> Thanks for the feedback ... you may add some more, please :-) > > >> > > >> Am Donnerstag, den 06.01.2011, 19:35 +0100 schrieb Mirek M.: > > >>> 2011/1/6 Christoph Noack<christ...@dogmatux.com> > > >> > > >> [...] > > >> > > >>> What do you think, might that work? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Here's my feedback: > > >>> I really like the colors in this iteration -- much more calming and > > >>> refined > > >>> than initially. I also love the template symbolism. > > >> > > >> Thanks - especially in this case it seems, that some more people (and > > >> thus, some more iterations) really help to improve the outcome.# > > >> > > > :-) > > > : > > >> The document symbolism I'm not so sure about -- the more complex and > > >> less > > >> > > >>> distinct these symbols get, the less quickly a user can distinguish > > >>> between > > >>> them (just compare the icons for Adobe's CS 2 and CS 3). But as long > > >>> as > > >>> the > > >>> other icons stay relatively simple and distinctive enough, this > > >>> change is okay. > > > > > > Adding more details is okay for larger scales while especially small > > > icons should keep very distinct and stylized symbols. > > > > > > I think it is hard to differ between template and document especially in > > > 16px size and high contrast icons, because it's just the left border, > > > that has a slightly bumpier design. > > > > +1 > > > > > I don't know how to add more differences between them - as Bj�rn already > > > mentioned: Color distinction is not enough (and the different colors > > > lose > > > their contrast in the small icons). > > > > > > Perhaps we should remove the blue pixels at the left border in the 16px > > > icons? > > > > > > Please contribute your ideas! > > > > I think it'd be OK to bring back the gray borders to the icons, like they > > used to have. > > Alternatively, one thing that could be done is to use dotted lines in the > > document symbols -- to represent that it's not a finished document, but > > rather a blueprint. > > > > >> [...] > > >> > > >> Concerning the idea / thoughts of the symbolism: Initially, I thought > > >> we > > >> can simply re-use the established items of the Galaxy MIME type icons > > >> - > > >> but then it looks rather strange for larger icons (e.g. the Draw > > >> symbol). On the other hand, the ODF icons are very subtle and detailed > > >> - > > >> so (in my opinion) they lack some good differentiation. Consequently, > > >> in > > >> my proposals, I tried to balance these requirements. > > >> > > >> From my point-of-view, the best size to work / analyze the symbolism > > >> are > > >> > > >> the 32px and 16px versions. The "upscaled" versions are simply > > >> enhanced > > >> by some more detail ... although the current LibreOffice branding > > >> tries > > >> to be rather clean and simple (even having some strong strokes, ...). > > > > > > I didn't took the strong lines of the TDF logo into account, leading to > > > detailed icons with much stronger border. Your version is much more > > > consistent! > > > > > >> Although I am not fully happy with it, here is a the Calc version: > > >> http://luxate.blogspot.com/2011/01/icon-as-con-i-can-2.html > > > > > > It gives too much weight on the chart in my eyes - perhaps because it is > > > not part of the spreadsheet? > > > > +1 > > I think the icon could do without a chart entirely, be just a table (I mean, > > that's what it's basically intended for, collecting data, whereas Impress, > > Writer, and Draw are more for the visual presentation of data). > > > > > Would it be reasonable to use a different type of chart (lines?) than > > > the > > > one we use for Chart itself? > > > > > >> One thing that I would rather do without is the shadow below the > > >> icon (in > > >> > > >>> the default icons). Most operating systems add their own shadows > > >>> and/or > > >>> reflections to icons, and when these icons have their own shadows > > >>> too, it just adds to the mess of effects that there are. > > >> > > >> Mmh, to be honest, I simply re-used what I knew about the Tango > > >> Icons ... usually they add some subtle shadow below the icons. But > > >> this > > >> may be wrong, although it (already) would cause a lot of effort to > > >> remove it. > > >> > > >> What kind of operating systems might be problematic - Windows, Mac, > > >> ... > > > > > > I never saw automatically added shadow at Windows (perhaps this changed > > > with Windows7)- for Mac I don't know. > > > > Sorry, mistake on my part. > > What I wanted to say was that default icons in various operating systems and > > software use different angles of shadow if they use shadow at all, so you > > can have 10 application icons next to each other and each of them might > > have a shadow under a different light source. > > Here are icon guidelines for GNOME, Tango, Mac OS, and Windows XP, > > respectively: > > http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/icons-style.html.en, > > http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines, > > http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Concept > > ual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIcons/XHIGIcons.html , > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms997636.aspx > > > > Plus Mac OS X really does cast its own shadow sometimes (with a light source > > being where the user is), as well as reflection. Certain Linux docks do the > > same. > > > > > But there are different shadow requirements, if icons are meant to be > > > integrated in different OS. Apple recommends different position sun and > > > a > > > different texture of the icons from Tango for example. > > > > > >> Another thing: the text in > > >> > > >>> the default icons seems a bit crammed at the bottom, perhaps because > > >>> of > > >>> the > > >>> shadow below the icon or the margin, as the high contrast icons > > >>> don't > > >>> seem > > >>> to have this problem. > > >> > > >> Good observation :-) The HC icons are not that problematic here, since > > >> I've enlarged them a bit to the bottom (instead of using a shadow - > > >> doesn't make much sense for HC icons). Thus, we've gained a bit space > > >> that helps to let the symbols "breathe" a bit. > > > > > > The shadow at the smaller icons is nearly invisible. > > > What do you think of dropping it for 48px and 32px too - gaining more > > > space for the symbols? > > > > +1 > > > > >> Removing the other shadows, by preserving the currently used area for > > >> the symbols might solve this issue. > > >> > > >> Lastly, it'd be great if the smaller default icons > > >> > > >>> lost the landscape symbol, just like the high contrast icons do, > > >>> because at > > >>> these small sizes, it loses both its meaning and its charm. > > >> > > >> Well, it seems like a 50:50 decision ;-) In my original design, there > > >> wasn#t a landscape picture, but Jaron worked out a good counter > > >> proposal ... I simply adapted my set for the default color set, but > > >> that > > >> won't work (probably) for the HC version. It's easy to rework that ... > > > > > > At the moment I tend to remove the landscape picture, even if I > > > preferred > > > Jaron's proposal over your first design. In my opinion the text lines > > > become too short and lose their clear symbol language a bit... > > > > > >> Here was the initial set I was working on: > > >> > > >> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8QbNNW6T8I9QGW7bls2JTg?feat=direc > > >> tlink > > >> > > >> Anyway, great work. It's nice to see the icons progress so well. > > >> > > >>>> Anybody who might join to bring some life to the rest (quite some > > >>>> number) of icons? > > >> > > >> Mirek, thanks for the great feedback ... since I know your great > > >> designs > > >> (Citrus& Co.) is there a chance that you might join. > > > > I'm not a very good designer, trust me. (I'm also relatively new to > > Inkscape, having recently switched from Macromedia Fireworks, and am still > > getting used to its quirks.) > > > > Even if I was, January is a very busy time for me (February should be > > better). > > But I'll definitely be willing to help as much as I can when I have the > > time. > > > > > Thanks form my side too! Time is really short, so we only can create > > > good > > > > > > icons in time, if we can reach the best possible design very soon. > > > > > > There is still a > > > > > >> bit hope (for me) that we might have something for the LibO 3.3 > > >> release. > > > > > > Removing the old OOo icons would be great (even if I liked the galaxy > > > theme...) - I still think it is possible. > > > > > > I'd hold up before removing the galaxy theme. I've been using the Tango > > > > icon theme on Ubuntu for a while now (since that's the only one OOo ships > > with), and it's still a bit of a usability pain, as most of the icons have > > very low contrast with the background. The icons under drawing are > > especially awful: you can barely discern the various shapes and inner shapes > > (e.g. smiley face). > > It'd be great if sometime down the line LibO had its own set of icons, > > perhaps simply a derivative of the Tango icons that fixes the contrast > > issues. Before that happens, I'd keep Galaxy as the default (unless there > > are issues that would prevent us from doing so). > > > > > I heard that almost all blockers for the release are resolved, so time > > > > > >> is running ... I'm currently on vacation, but I'm unable to deliver > > >> more > > >> than one iteration per day (having some other duties as well). > > > > > > I'm sorry that I can't help more. > > > > > > Perhaps during the next days I could start working on one of the other > > > icons. > > > > > > Any proposals? Draw? Math? Macro? > > > > > >> Shamelessly, I also BCC Thorsten and Nik - I'm not sure whether they > > >> are > > >> aware of the current discussion. It would also be great to hear their > > >> opinions, and maybe we can join all the forces :-) > > >> > > >> :-) > > >> > > >> Oh, I totally forgot about that ... I reworked the wiki page a bit and > > >> also added the current (messy draft) source file there. The next step > > >> is > > >> to sum up some of the "what symbol metaphor to use" discussions ... I > > >> hope there will be something before I go to bed (and there is not much > > >> "today" left *g*). > > > > > > Good night ;-) > > > > > > Bernhard > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > > > design+h...@libreoffice.org<design%2bh...@libreoffice.org> List > > > archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > > > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > -- > www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
