El jue., 28 mar. 2019 16:18, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> escribió:
> > > > On Mar 28, 2019, at 10:20 AM, Naomi Slater <n...@tumbolia.org> wrote: > > > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 14:35, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> wrote: > > > >> So what are you proposing? What actionable corrections can we make > >> that don't turn the concept of "it doesn't matter who you are, it is > what > >> you > >> do that counts" on its ear? > >> > > > > this thread, if you go back to the start of it, was my attempt to start > > that conversation. I have repeatedly given suggestions (both on this > > thread, and on other threads) for things we could do > > > > I see them, but we have to admit that they are spread out over various > threads and emails. I hate to ask, but could you consolidate them all > into a single doc/email? > > > > >> If we are actively (or passively) discouraging diversity, then it is > >> a problem, of course. Are we? > >> > > > > yes. of course we are. ~5% of our committer base are women. 1 single > > person, that we know of, is Black. compare these to the figures for the > > industry as a whole and there is literally no other conclusion you can > come > > to > > I disagree that such lack of diversity can be attributed to us > discouraging it. > > > > > can you explain to me where that other 15% of women are? why do we not > > count them amongst our committers? > > > > I don't know... maybe they aren't driven or attracted to contributing to > open source projects. Maybe the kinds of projects within the ASF > are not the kinds that attract them > > All this assumes that the diversity at Apache should match the "tech > industry in North America". But why? The jobs in the tech industry > are wide and varied... are the roles here just as wide and varied? > Plus, you are talking about jobs vs. "what we do" and they are > different things. I would submit that there are some fundamental > differences between contributing to open source and working in > the tech industry... and these differences may be significant. > Maybe one reason is that men find it important to constantly > prove themselves and contributing to open source is a good > way to do that; women are more secure and don't need such > frivolity? (I am NOT saying that this is the case, BTW. My > point is that there might be reasons NOT due to discouragement) > > > > > again. I have made a number of suggestions for starting points in this > very > > thread. and have not gone into more detail, because frankly I am > exhausted > > trying to get people to even acknowledge *we have a problem* -- something > > that is exemplified by your not-so-subtle hand-wringing about "teh social > > justice warriors" in your last email > > Your last sentence proved my point... :( > > > > (if you're looking for reasons women might not want to contribute to > > Apache, perhaps this serves as one example...) > > > > As does this unfortunately. > > > I want everyone and anyone who wishes to contribute to Apache to > >> be able to do so, be warmly welcomed, and be acknowledged and rewarded > >> for their actions and contributions. I think we are all in agreement > >> here. > >> > > > > then why do you dismiss criticism of the systems we've put in place to > > supposedly work towards those goals? criticism that is sorely needed > > > > Again, my point is that the systems are not the issue, but rather the > implementation of them. If they are broken, we need to fix them. I > don't dismiss the criticism. I want to understand the criticism. > > I don't expect you, or anyone, to take my claims at face value. > But nor do I take anyone's claims at face value either... > > We agree with: > Is the ASF as diverse as the population? No. > ... as the tech industry in NA? No. > Would it be good to be more diverse? Yes. > > We seem to disagree with the root causes behind #1 and #2 > and maybe about what "success" would look like for #3. > But these are not unsurmountable disagreements. I am sure > we could and can find common ground. Certainly more information > and data would be very useful! > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
