> On Mar 28, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>>
<snip>
>>> If we are actively (or passively) discouraging diversity, then it is
>>> a problem, of course. Are we?
>>>
>>
>> yes. of course we are. ~5% of our committer base are women. 1 single
>> person, that we know of, is Black. compare these to the figures for the
>> industry as a whole and there is literally no other conclusion you can come
>> to
>
> I disagree that such lack of diversity can be attributed to us discouraging
> it.
Perhaps it is because we are not actively encouraging it.
I think that in the Incubator we may be focused on IP and Release ceremonies
and vendor neutrality, and less focused on true community growth.
Are there resources that Comdev could provide on Best Practices from a PMC that
has been more successful at D & I? Do we have any example?
>
>>
>> can you explain to me where that other 15% of women are? why do we not
>> count them amongst our committers?
>>
>
> I don't know... maybe they aren't driven or attracted to contributing to
> open source projects. Maybe the kinds of projects within the ASF
> are not the kinds that attract them
>
> All this assumes that the diversity at Apache should match the "tech
> industry in North America". But why? The jobs in the tech industry
> are wide and varied... are the roles here just as wide and varied?
> Plus, you are talking about jobs vs. "what we do" and they are
> different things. I would submit that there are some fundamental
> differences between contributing to open source and working in
> the tech industry... and these differences may be significant.
> Maybe one reason is that men find it important to constantly
> prove themselves and contributing to open source is a good
> way to do that; women are more secure and don't need such
> frivolity? (I am NOT saying that this is the case, BTW. My
> point is that there might be reasons NOT due to discouragement)
Perhaps our now, more occasional long email threads that seem to some like
filibustering are a turn off, and silently drive people away?
Let’s look at what we can do to make it better even if we have untested
assumptions.
>>
>> again. I have made a number of suggestions for starting points in this very
>> thread. and have not gone into more detail, because frankly I am exhausted
>> trying to get people to even acknowledge *we have a problem* -- something
>> that is exemplified by your not-so-subtle hand-wringing about "teh social
>> justice warriors" in your last email
>
> Your last sentence proved my point... :(
>>
>> (if you're looking for reasons women might not want to contribute to
>> Apache, perhaps this serves as one example...)
>>
>
> As does this unfortunately.
Filibustering - I mean it in both the sense of long winded political discussion
and unauthorized military exhibitions - 19th century and earlier.
>
>> I want everyone and anyone who wishes to contribute to Apache to
>>> be able to do so, be warmly welcomed, and be acknowledged and rewarded
>>> for their actions and contributions. I think we are all in agreement
>>> here.
>>>
>>
>> then why do you dismiss criticism of the systems we've put in place to
>> supposedly work towards those goals? criticism that is sorely needed
>>
>
> Again, my point is that the systems are not the issue, but rather the
> implementation of them. If they are broken, we need to fix them. I
> don't dismiss the criticism. I want to understand the criticism.
>
> I don't expect you, or anyone, to take my claims at face value.
> But nor do I take anyone's claims at face value either...
>
> We agree with:
> Is the ASF as diverse as the population? No.
> ... as the tech industry in NA? No.
> Would it be good to be more diverse? Yes.
>
> We seem to disagree with the root causes behind #1 and #2
> and maybe about what "success" would look like for #3.
> But these are not unsurmountable disagreements. I am sure
> we could and can find common ground. Certainly more information
> and data would be very useful!
See my observation about the Incubator. You’ve been involved there.
What do you think?
BTW - Bertrand is leading a website rewrite and that is an opportunity to help
shape the message and provide information!
Regards,
Dave
>
>
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