David:
This is the first time I think I've seen you write something positive
about OFBiz: "I also think OFBiz is great". A step in the right
direction! Thank you for stating that.
I understand completely your motivation and I'm empathetic to your
position. I'm only asking that you don't bash OFBiz at the expense of
any other project. If your latest endeavor is the answer to all your
ills (and OFBiz's), then by all means pursue it with all the passion and
commitment that you have.
FYI: You wrote: "It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots..."
You would be surprised, as I was, at the number of people using OFBiz
who do not know who you are or about your association with the project.
I've met many over the last few years. Therefore, in my experience, to
many people, with OFBiz interests, you are an "outsider".
Best Regards,
Ruth
On 5/3/11 9:05 AM, Tim Ruppert wrote:
Well said David. I think that the investment you made to OFBiz pre-Moqui was
astounding, but what you've created in Moqui has the chance to save the project
and keep it going for the _next_ 10 years. Thank you for being proactive
enough and caring enough to get out in front of the community even when at
times it's not able to see that a change is needed.
My two cents.
Cheers,
Ruppert
On May 2, 2011, at 10:22 PM, David E Jones wrote:
Ruth,
It's not as if I'm an outsider taking pot-shots at something from a distance. I
also think OFBiz is great, but after working with it for a decade I'm confident
I can do better, and I can confidently say the same about many in the OFBiz
community. We can do better, and what's more: we want to.
Maybe you're not familiar with the pattern of my comments, it is the pattern of
retrospection and introspection and open communication about a creation and a
long-term effort. It's what happens when someone has so thoroughly explored and
experienced and tried to improve something that clear patterns of success and
failure have emerged.
Consider my efforts on Moqui and related projects to be my attempt at atonement
for the many sins laid at my feet over my years with OFBiz that now fetter my
soul and make further progress difficult.
If you've never experienced anything of the sort, I challenge you to stretch
yourself and work to create something great. Take on something that is so
beyond you that you can't see the other side, and keep pushing for it after
having to give up and start over a time or two. Then you'll understand.
-David
On May 2, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
On 5/2/11 9:23 PM, Scott Gray wrote:
On 3/05/2011, at 12:51 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
List:
Why is it that David is allowed to advertise continuously about his latest pet
project - that has nothing to do with OFBiz - on this mailing list and others,
such as myself can't even mention a resource dedicated entirely to OFBiz, that
many have found useful, (MyOFBiz.com http://www.myofbiz.com) without risk of
severe rebuke?
The only time I think I've rebuked you is when you did nothing to engage the conversation
and instead just wrote something along the lines of "you'll find the answer to that
question at my website!". I don't think anyone has an issue with the promotion of
relevant websites, companies, projects, etc. but I don't personally think it should ever
be the primary purpose of sending a message to these lists. Moqui isn't just a random
pet project anyway, it is a potential replacement for the OFBiz framework created by one
of the founders of OFBiz, if that's not worthy of discussion I don't know what would be.
IMO, it is one thing to talk about replacing the framework. It is quite another
to continually harp on what is wrong with OFBiz.
Of course that was a rhetorical question. I know the answer. But I will say
this: As an outsider, what I see going on here is seriously wrong...The
constant innuendo that there is something amiss with OFBiz undermines the
public's faith in the quality and value proposition of this project.
That seems pretty hypocritical considering you've spent a fair amount of time
in the past criticizing the most active members of the community and spreading
FUD about the way this project is managed. But at the end of the day there is
something wrong and ignoring that will achieve nothing, this is the dev list
and is the most appropriate place to discuss these development related issues.
Really? What, in your esteemed opinion is wrong? With OFBiz that is. And not
me. (I already know that latter.)
Despite all the differences of all the OFBiz community members, OFBiz still
remains the best open source - possibly any source - ERP around. Lets not
forget that.
Although I have no authority to request this I'm asking that David please stop using this
list as his "dumping" ground. David, if you do not have positive OFBiz
commentary, please don't post.
Nobody has any authority here other than the respect one gains through what the ASF calls
a "meritorcracy" (government by merit), and there really can't be any doubt
that David has well and truly earned the right to say whatever he damn well pleases (in
my opinion). David's spent more time interacting with this community than anyone else
and if he's learnt something from that then I for one want to hear it.
Well, if your aim is to destroy OFBiz in favor of Moqui or any other "the grass is
always greener" solution, then by all means bash away and encourage David and
everyone to join the fray.
BTW, anyone wanting to help me make MyOFBiz.com a better resource for the OFBiz
community, please feel free to contact me at ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com
Regards,
Ruth
On 5/2/11 7:46 PM, David E Jones wrote:
In fact, we have a garden now... it's just looking for gardeners.
Moqui Framework 1.0 is feature-complete and in beta. The Mantle data model
(UDM) is in an initially complete state (except for seed data which I'm still
working on), and is at a point where feedback is the most important next step
(with various improvements to it already planned as well).
In any case, framework add-ons and applications are welcome, and I've even
solicited creation of such things in order to help test the framework and give
people opportunities to experience the framework and give feedback.
If you create something great, let me know and I'll list it here:
http://www.moqui.org/crust.html
Maybe even Apache OFBiz will be there at some point.
-David
On May 2, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Shi Jinghai wrote:
That's great, David. Glad to know we'll have a garden soon.
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 10:00 -0700, David E Jones wrote:
My goal is to split the community to various sub-communities involved in
different projects which make up an ecosystem of projects based on the same
framework and data model, as opposed to a single project for everything. This
will reduce conflict and encourage people to try different ideas with end-users
in the position to choose between them based on what works best for them.
A distributed community, as opposed to a centralized community, would allow many more people to get
involved with much less conflict than our current rather small community. The point is not to
exclude people or get rid of a community, the point is to enable more people to get involved and
move it more towards a "free market" structure as opposed to the current "central
planning" type of structure that OFBiz operates under.
-David
