On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net> wrote: > > On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:19 AM, Rob Weir wrote: > >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Marcus (OOo) <marcus.m...@wtnet.de> wrote: >>> Am 07/14/2013 07:11 PM, schrieb Rob Weir: >>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo)<marcus.m...@wtnet.de> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new >>>>> thread. >>>>> >>>>> For reference here is the old policy: >>>>> >>>>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements >>>>> >>>>> My new suggestion: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. >>>>> >>>>> 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This >>>>> should be translated much better than 90%. >>>>> >>>>> Why? >>>>> >>>>> 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do >>>>> average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I >>>>> don't think so. >>>>> >>>>> 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or >>>>> better >>>>> for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. >>>>> >>>>> 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. >>>>> should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. >>>>> They >>>>> want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated >>>>> parts. >>>>> >>>>> And now, add your points. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be >>>> open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising >>>> the bar, not lowering it. >>>> >>>> If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then >>>> there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. >>>> There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only >>>> a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and >>>> then release it. >>> >>> >>> Sure, 90% was just my suggestion to raise the bar from 80%. But to stick >>> with 100% is much easier as it's all or nothing. >>> >>> >>>> On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no >>>> active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it >>>> will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will >>>> reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to >>>> release. >>> >>> >>> Yes, if the language is no longer supported actively then we shouldn't >>> release it. >>> >>> >>>> In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two >>>> and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that >>>> is better than releasing something only partially done. >>>> >>>> Also, there is the "slippery slope" here. If we allow 90% complete >>>> then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. >>> >>> >>> But then we have to be strict as 99% is also near to 100%. ;-) >>> >>> >>>> What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of >>>> AOO 4.0, in all languages that are "close", maybe 80% or 90%. Not for >>>> release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current >>>> state and help translate. >>> >>> >>> Good point, +1. >>> >>> Do you think about a L10N release somewhen between releases or as a RC where >>> it's clear from the beginning that it will not be released? >>> >> >> In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any >> additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar >> to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait >> for AOO 4.1. > > I don't disagree with the policy of deadlines, but why September 16th? If > some languages are ready sooner (like Traditional Chinese) it ought to be > possible to have an earlier set. Perhaps we make it once a month? >
My impression was that several key people are planning on taking vacation after AOO 4.0 is released. Nothing magic about the Sept 16th date. But there is something magic about August ;-) > We also need to understand that there will be a certain length of time from a > deadline to a language pack release. Is it one week? > Right. I was suggesting that date as a release date. We'd need to work backwards to set translation deadlines, etc. >> You ask about an RC where it is not clear whether it will be released? >> We may run into that issue if we have a beta for AOO 4.1. I don't >> think all translations are complete for a beta. (Or are they?) If so >> it is possible for a beta to include a language that never is included >> in the final release. This would occur if the translators do not >> finish the translation. This may sound cruel, but we can use this >> for recruitment. When we publish the beta we can note that the >> translation is not finished and that volunteers are welcome. > > I think that we should be careful to have a UI and Help freeze in advance of > releases in order to give plenty of time for language teams to assure that > they can meet our high standard of 100%. > > If we are going to co-ordinate many small teams then we need to establish > schedules and try to commit to them. (As Jürgen has done for this RC.) > Exactly. -Rob > Regards, > Dave > > >> >> Regards, >> >> -Rob >> >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> >>>>> Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weir<robw...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidt<jogischm...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat< >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed >>>>>>>>>>>>> something on the Traditional Chinese version? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> UI translation is not complete: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an >>>>>>>>>>> agreement that we need 100% for a release? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> mailing list, and properly tagged ("if it does not happen on the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> list..."). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times >>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>> have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI >>>>>>>>>>> [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> incomplete >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4.0.0 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RC. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm very >>>>>>>>> sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the previous >>>>>>>>> discussion. However, there are several issues of concern: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source >>>>>>>>> conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on 8/3, and plan to >>>>>>>>> announce OpenOffice 4.0. It is the first talk after the key notes. It >>>>>>>>> would be very embarrassing to announce it without a local version >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> released. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2. There would be a large-scale deployment around August or September >>>>>>>>> (6000-7000) in a government department, and they are planning to join >>>>>>>>> our development force in order to fix some Chinese problems in >>>>>>>>> governmental use. If OpenOffice 4.0 Traditional Chinese version is >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> available at that time, we could only give them 3.4.1, which their >>>>>>>>> development could not be based on. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've asked our local community to help the translation in urgent. >>>>>>>>> If we can finish the Traditional Chinese sidebar translation with >>>>>>>>> certain amount, could it be OK to release it? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> let translate the UI First and then we can figure out what's possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hopefully some other languages can continue the translation as well and >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> can think about a language only release where I am a big fan of to >>>>>>> support >>>>>>> local communities. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is obviously some tension in our goals here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) We want to release the good work that is already done, so users who >>>>>>> can enjoy the new features, bug fixes, interop improvements, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) We also have some languages that are "almost" done and don't want >>>>>>> to "miss the train". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IMHO the way to resolve this tension is to let the current 4.0 train >>>>>>> leave the station, but announce another train is leaving soon. Maybe >>>>>>> we can set a goal of September 16th for either a 4.0.1 (if we're >>>>>>> making code changes for a new critical bug) or a language update of >>>>>>> 4.0.0 (if there are only new translations). Hopefully we all remember >>>>>>> that we did this with AOO 3.4.1 as well, adding more languages after >>>>>>> we released. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From what I can tell there is a steady stream of interest in >>>>>>> translating AOO to other languages. There will always be another >>>>>>> language that is "almost ready". That is what success looks like. We >>>>>>> need to handle new translations when they are ready. We can't hold up >>>>>>> the train, but we also can't make volunteers wait too long for the >>>>>>> next train. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So how does September 16th sound for releasing additional languages? >>>>>>> Is that enough time? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Rob >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This seems quite reasonable to me. We need a little time for regrouping, >>>>>> and dealing with perhaps some minor issues that might pop up from the >>>>>> 4.0 >>>>>> release. >>>>>> >>>>>> Re the old stated "policy" on : >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements >>>>>> >>>>>> If this no longer our policy, we should definitely change this. >>>>>> >>>>>> But...I think we should first discuss the policy. What levels of >>>>>> translation do we feel are acceptable if not at 100%. What do we >>>>>> absolutely >>>>>> require to be translated? Menus vs help files, for example. >>>>>> >>>>>> Once we determine translation thresholds, we should include the policy >>>>>> on >>>>>> the "Native Language" page on the project web site: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://openoffice.apache.org/native-lang.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But in general we have discussed it and I would have not released >>>>>>>> German >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (my mother language) if the UI translation would have been not >>>>>>> complete. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just to make sure that we need active local communities who >>>>>>>> participate >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in the project or at least in the translation part. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It would be even better if the help would be translated as well but >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is a much higher burden and we are more flexible here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Juergen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Ciao >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
