Hi Ed, How do you really feel? ;-)
All kidding aside, lets take a step back from the situation for a moment, and look at this from the other direction, and evaluate what our goals are, and see if we can define them a little better. Maybe THEN we can start building a bridge from where we are to where we want to be. I think I speak for everyone in LOPSA (hopefully, at least) when I say that the ultimate goal is to improve the state of the profession. In a little more blunt terms, a lot of sysadmins are really rubbish at what they do, and we'd like to fix that. Going beyond that, though, I don't think that we are aiming for just a higher level of mediocrity. Ideally, we'd all be /good/ at what we do, but instead of that unrealistic goal, people bring up discussions like this because they're interested in the next best thing - good /enough/. Discussions like this, regulation, general certification, sysadmin degrees, etc are all pointed toward the same goal of establishing a level of practice that is /good enough/, with the level of the bar being raised to whatever personal goal the submitter of each particular idea has. I think that wanting to improve the state of the profession (and the people that practice it) is admirable. I don't think anyone here wants to explicitly block knowledge from people outside of a "guild", and the vast majority don't want to prevent "unlicensed" folks from doing general system administration work. I think what most people DO want is for there to be a recognition of a certain skill level acknowledgment, and for it to be widely recognized enough by employers that it makes a difference. So, if my assumptions are correct, if regulation isn't the way forward (at least in many cases) but we still want to improve the practice, what do you think the /right/ way to advance the interests of LOPSA are? Thanks for your time, --Matt On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Ed <[email protected]> wrote: > The naivete of this post is astounding. > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Mark Dennehy <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I suspect what members of LOPSA want and don't want will be irrelevant, > > because regulation is usually pushed on professionals by the public they > > serve (and who are failed and burned by the chancers). > > The European Gild system, from which all this crap developed, was > explicitly used to control(limit) knowledge and entry into the market. > Copyright was established in England to benefit the publishers, > authors be damned - and has changed little since, other than in global > reach. The medical profession, which has perhaps the best reason for a > certification regime, has a horrible record of self regulation, > reflexively protecting many a bad doctor at the expense of patients. > Only in the face of another mob (the lawyers) has any recourse been > had, not that the patient sees much of that either. and that only in > the states. > > Furthermore, as a former Licensed Broker, I can guarantee that the > regulatory purpose is only superficially an objective. If you have a > problem with a financial firm, I invite you to try and seek legal > recourse. You will find that the extent of any recourse is limited to > arbitration by others in the industry(retired).* Hell, try and raise > money for a project and you soon find yourself paying $MM for > accounting that only a few thousand businesses really need. And don't > get me started on the con game of European Accounting (soon to be > world wide) Standards. It is all very tightly regulated marginally for > the safety of the general public but primarily to steer any potential > aggregation of funds, and the fees that result, into the financial > industry. Why do you think "Too Big To Fail" remains the same problem > it was before 2008? The Too Big folks are the ones at the top of the > pyramid - and the point is that there is only one pyramid. That is how > you get a Treasury Secretary that skipped out on paying his own taxes > - don't try that at home kids, you would get screwed. > > *last I checked there were two exceptions - little old ladies and > sexual harassment. > > > As to mechanics, well, it's different where I come from - they are > regulated > > in Ireland, the training is done via four-year apprenticeships with > approved > > mechanics, with continual assessment and a structured curriculum. When > you > > have an MOT/NCT system (that's the national is-your-car-roadworthy test > in > > Ireland and the UK), you need to have mechanics with a standard level of > > competence, and the normal reaction to that need from the lay person is > to > > demand regulation. > > so how much does that cost annually? and that drivers license? driving > is really only for the upper classes on that side of the pond - right > ;) > > > The day the lay person comes to accept that their life as they know it > right > > down to their most basic needs, is utterly dependant on computer systems > > working as they should, we'll see an irresistible demand for regulation. > And > > by irresistible, I mean politicians drafting legislation that says we > don't > > get to work as sysadmins unless we have X, Y and Z certification. It's > > inevitable really, the only question is whether it'll happen during our > > professional lives or not. > > and there will be an app for that - and then owning a computer will > get even more expensive for those same poor saps. > Tell me - you guys still paying a tax to BBC because your monitor > looks like a TV? or is that the other island > > the power plays here are far too toxic for LOPSA to undertake anything > in this area. > > > > > > On 15 November 2011 23:23, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Lawrence K. Chen, P.Eng. wrote: > >> > >>> Yeah...this kind of question might stir up more sides if it were posed > to > >>> a > >>> list that wasn't LOPSA.... Since, isn't one of the reasons we belong > to > >>> LOPSA > >>> is that we want this to happen. > >> > >> Not everyone in LOPSA wants regulation of system administration to > happen. > >> > >> I don't want everyone who is a system administrator to have to get a > >> license/certification/approval because I see the job of being a system > >> administrator as being so broad that having such a restriction is like > >> restricting ownership of typewriters or photocopiers in that it will > >> restrict people's fundamental free speach rights and what they are > allowed > >> to do with their own property. > >> > >> I would also oppose any requirement to require an "Internet Drivers > >> License" or certification before anyone is allowed to connect a > computer to > >> the Internet. > >> > >> > >> Not every field that has Professionals in it is licensed and regulated. > >> Take the example of mechanics. You don't need to have any sort of > license to > >> work on a car. You don't even need to have a license or certification to > >> open a shop working on other people's cars. There are specific subfields > >> where you do need to have a license to be paid to work on someone's car > >> (brakes and lights), and there are a lot of people (especially insurance > >> companies) that will not do business with you unless you do get formal > >> training and certifications, but nobody claims that there are no > >> professional mechanics, and anyone who goes around claiming that the > world > >> would be better if only everyone who ever turned a wrench was licensed > and > >> regulated will just get laughed at. > >> > >> I see being a System Administrator as being very similar to being a > >> Mechanic. > >> > >> David Lang > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Discuss mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > >> This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > >> http://lopsa.org/ > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark Dennehy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Discuss mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > > http://lopsa.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discuss > This list provided by the League of Professional System Administrators > http://lopsa.org/ > -- LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? COOKIE MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.
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