No Tim. You are falling back on a weak defense that is pointless
to debate. You are implying that the blind, overall, are lied to or
can be spoon fed anything from anyone. Both assertions are baseless
and foolish. One can make the same claim for the sighted as well and
be equally wrong. In regard to this topic, since the advent of
VoiceOver, I believe Apple's progress speaks for itself. Thus, who is
being forced or fooled into believing what? It amazes me that when
one personalizes an issue, the grounds to defend that issue become
blurred at best. The original subject was iTunes accessibility. You
don't think it's good enough nor will it improve. Others believe
otherwise. I think that's perfectly clear after all of this, and,
again, comes back to opinions. In this case, though, the body of
evidence indicates the latter, as opposed to the former.
Take Care
John Panarese
On Aug 23, 2008, at 10:35 PM, Tim Grady wrote:
You left off the end of my sentence, or my point would have been
obvious.
On Aug 23, 2008, at 10:23 PM, John Panarese wrote:
And? The blind can be told what? Sighted people can be told
anything as well, but what is your point?
Take Care
John Panarese
On Aug 23, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Tim Grady wrote:
I think the blind can be told anything and believe it.
On Aug 23, 2008, at 7:02 PM, John Panarese wrote:
I know you haven't been on the list as long as many of us, so you
might not be aware of the saga that unfolded over iTunes
inaccessibility prior to it being improved. Additionally, some
of us have been fortunate enough to have discussions with Apple
Accessibility people and can be certain that they are aware of
the problems and have been assured they will all be dealt with.
Furthermore, others have gotten responses to emails sent to Apple
accessibility regarding the iTunes Store. Thus, I think it's
safe to say that we can be more certain of the fact that it will
be fixed and in the end that Apple is aware of the situation than
it Not being the case. What one might believe is a "simple fix",
is often not the case, as there are several components of iTunes
and now that the iPods, iPhones and Mac computers are all pretty
well connected via software, I'm sure that is a factor as well.
I have my own theory as to why the last parts of iTunes have not
yet been made accessible, and I know, at least, a few others
share it. However, since it would only be additional
speculation, it's not worth mentioning. All I can recommend to
you, Tim, is to take a few steps back and look at the big picture
as accessibility stands on the Mac and how far it has come. If
that's not good enough for you, well, like anything else,
everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs. Other
doubters have had their share of crow to consume in the past
Take Care
John Panarese
On Aug 23, 2008, at 4:19 PM, Tim Grady wrote:
How do you know Apple knows the problems we are having and
what's more, how do you know they care about your problems?
Aren't you doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing, that
is making some huge assumptions, the first one being that I
don't know what I'm talking about when I site a problem I see
and say it would be an easy fix for Apple to make?
On Aug 23, 2008, at 11:05 AM, John Panarese wrote:
Don't sweat it, David. You and I have been around the block
with accessibility, and it's the usual reflexive reaction to
claim that anyone who defends Apple is doing so out of loyalty
to Apple alone. Of course, the reality that some of us have
dealt with several levels of accessibility coming over from
years of Windows frustrations for several years and are at the
point that we have a handle on how these things tend to
progress is often lost. What Apple can and cannot fix easily,
again, is an assumption being made here, as we have no idea of
the what and the why involved. We all have our frustrations
and "complaints" over the things we can't do, but there comes a
point in which you say your peace in a non dramatic, productive
way and that's that. Apple knows the problems and beating the
dead horse isn't gong to helping the matter.
As for the store, again, a highly exaggerated claim being made
here, as I have bought songs from iTunes and consider 99 cents
worth the price. Amazon doesn't do it for me, but that is, of
course, my personal preference. The album aspect and the
registration, in the big picture of accessibility overall, is
not something I lose sleep over. What Apple has done in a few
short years compared to other folks indicates to me that there
is a method behind the proverbial madness. Not too long ago,
seemngly overnight, iTunes went from limited accessibility to
its current usability without any fanfare or such from Apple.
We had np special word or announcement made by anyone from
Apple. It just happened. There are other applications and
features that, from a productivity standpoint, are far more
important to be fixed than iTunes. It will all be fixed, but I
know that the complaints will only fall somewhere else after
that and on and on, as it Always seems to do.
Take Care
John Panarese
On Aug 22, 2008, at 6:41 PM, David Poehlman wrote:
If you want to talk about the truth, look at the aph
publications about
voiceover over the past couple of years. Loook at all the
claims made by
microsoft about "accessibility" over the past several years.
We have been
told before each release that things will get bettter and in
some ways, they
do but the price is too high.
I came from a windows and dos background. I am not of the
apple culture and
neither is john.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Grady" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of
Mac OS X by
theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: iTunes Accessibility - have I been mistaken?
Considering that one of the main purposes of Itunes is
supposed to be
their store I would say that your 90 percent figure is no
better then
any story you'd get from say a used car salesman. I have
noticed that
Mac users are particularly loyal to Apple and not prone to
telling the
truth.
On Aug 22, 2008, at 1:00 PM, John Panarese wrote:
I think there are some assumptions being made here. I don't
believe at all that anyone is being "ignored". That kind of
statement seems quite a bit out of place all things
considered. No
one knows exactly what is going on with iTunes and what Apple
is or
is not doing about it. Also, in regard to overall
accessibility,
I'd say that 90 or 95 percent accessible is a much more
accurate
statement. The iTunes store can still be used and what can't
be
accomplished with VoiceOver surely does not constitute 50
percent
inaccessible.
Take Care
John Panarese
On Aug 22, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Tim Grady wrote:
Your right about that, and just to show you how much they're
ignoring your concerns just take a look at every time there
is an
update to Itunes. Now this is only a small problem but the
point
is that it would really be an easy fix would they decide to
make
it. Did you ever notice that after an update you couldn't
buy a
song without hitting a totally inaccessible button?
On Aug 21, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Dan Eickmeier wrote:
Also I believe the innitial setup of an account is not
accessible either.
On Aug 21, 2008, at 11:10 AM, will lomas wrote:
i think they know about it and we just have to wait and
wait and
wait
On 21 Aug 2008, at 14:29, UCLA Bruins Fan wrote:
we can purchase songs, assuming someone has helped us set
up an
account, because this feature is still inaccessible. I
don't
know what else we can do to persuade apple to fix this
issue!
On Aug 21, 2008, at 12:33 AM, will lomas wrote:
we can buy songs from it so it is half way there but the
window
for buying albums etc is not. i still don't see why it
takes 2
years to fix this
On 21 Aug 2008, at 05:42, Chris Gilland wrote:
your friend is exactly right. the store window isn't
accessible in the least.
Chris.
Do you need help with legal matters? Would you like to
have
access to legal advice 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?
How
about assistance creating/modifying your will? Are you
in
need of identity theft protection? I'd be happy to assist
Please visit my web site at:
http://www.prepaidlegal.com/hub/chrisgilland
or E-mail me at:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: 704-817-8846
Thank you and have a blessed day.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ricky Buchanan"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the
use of
Mac OS X by theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:17 AM
Subject: iTunes Accessibility - have I been mistaken?
G'day,
I read an article by Peter Abrams about the
accessibility of
the iPhone. It's about the *lack of* accessibility of
the
iPhone, mostly. Anyway, in the comments of course
there's
the requisite - I thought - idiot saying that iTunes
isn't
accessible.
I assumed this was a Windows user who had no clue and
I was
rather, erm, strident in informing him of his mistaken
beliefs. Anyway, he's replied again listing specifics
of
what he can't do (mainly, interact with the main iTunes
Story window in any way) and saying that "his blind
friend"
is not just a Leopard user but a beta tester for VO.
I'm not
a VO user myself as many of you know, so I'm concerned
that I
may have ended up with both feet in my mouth here!
The article is here:
<http://www.it-analysis.com/business/change/content.php?cid=10678
If you search for "Big Man" you'll jump to his first
comment.
If you want to leave a reply on that web page, please
please
please be very polite and no flaming! Just facts about
whether he's right or not... I don't want to create
problems
or "apple fanboy rage" or make VO users look bad in
any way.
If you want to reply on the list, I'll leave another
comment
there with links to the list replies via the archives.
Cheers,
Ricky
--
ATMac - http://atmac.org/ - Assistive Technology for
Mac OS X
Users
