On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 11:35 +0100, Sophie Gautier wrote: > Hi Ian, > > Ian Lynch wrote: > > I have changed the thread title. I have also copied to > > [email protected] since there are a lot of people that this > > could affect they should have an opportunity to debate this. For this > > reason I think that starting an incubator should be delayed until the > > topic has had time for proper discussion. I'm not saying that I am in > > favour of any particular outcome at this point, I just think the people > > involved in the current education project deserve more than a day's > > notice of a potentially significant change. > > This is not a change. I'm following the list too since its beginning. > The proposal I'll made will be to collect material that already exist > and will exist, collect inititiatives done by education ministry or else > (see Mandriva educational cds for example), etc... > This is not done on this list from what I've seen. I didn't search on IZ > for material though.
Lists don't in general collect material, they discuss its collection. If you have sources of information, let's discuss them and how we might make them available. We don't need to fork the project to do that. I have absolutely no problem with anyone with access rights to the main web site putting in any education links or create any pages they think should be there. After all I advocate Wikis so why would I be concerned about anyone adding to the education pages? > >> Well, no gold or bronze for me, the topic is not here, but in what we > >> are going to share ie: pedagogy and material. > > > > My point is that you say that this is not part of the education project > > in marketing, I'm saying it always was. Its simply that with nowhere > > else for an education project it happened to be put under marketing. I > > believe we discussed that some months ago by private E-mail. > > Yes, that's true and I told you that I don't want to see this happen > here too, that's why I'm proposing an incubator project. I'm proposing we consider making the education project as it exists now into a new project, incubator if necessary but that we don't have two projects that have essentially the same aims even if each have some different content. > >> Usage of OOo in France, Switzerland or Canadian schools are not the > >> topic as the product is largely used (I can share numbers if needed but > >> I'm not very proud here as this is only usage). > > > > That is the strategy in providing a government recognised certification > > for participation. That is the essence of the concept of "Learning > > through Participation". My background is about pedagogy in education. > > This is also done in France currently for some examination level, I'm > waiting for the result of the OOo evaluation done last year. Its also done in many other countries by many other systems. I have been travelling around the world a lot in the last two years to get more information about this. Currently there is no international standard and AFAIK none that gives recognition specifically to participation in Open Source projects. There is nothing wrong with complementary national schemes, I have discussed this with for example, the government of Catalonia and we are in principle agreed to work for compatibility between their national scheme and the International one I proposed. The examination systems even within one country can be complex and there is no reason to exclude any of them. My point is that this aspect is central to the existing education project, we don't need to invent a new project to cover it. If people want to catalogue national examination options that are OOo compatible that would be a good sub-project. Currently if someone else wants to do it they need 3 things. The professional knowledge, time and ability to edit the main web site. A wiki at least removes one of those barriers. > IZ is also very good for this or the Doc&Files part of the list where > you can see who is working on what and reserve the files. We use it for > documentation and the workflow is pretty easy even for non english > speaking or non tech speaking. Ok so file some issues on this and cc them to this list, me or whatever. Again I can't see why the method of communication is relevant to the central issue of why we need 2 projects. > >> And there is already a lot > >> : see Dmaths, Dscience, HistOOo, the EN/Apple initiative, > >> Thales/Polytechnique, etc... for known examples, that can be so useful > >> as a project and as a product. > > > > The thing is that if we didn't know about them we couldn't do too much > > about them. I don't recall any proposals to get these translated or to > > get them onto the schools pages or set up new repositories for them. If > > I missed that I apologise but unless people bring things to my attention > > I don't necessarily know they exist. In fact getting translations to > > English if these don't exist might well be something specialist language > > schools in English might be interested in and I have good connections in > > these. > > I've indicated them several times and some are already in English or in > several languages : > http://www.dmaths.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=9 > The education project should point to this kind of work, it could help a > lot of people through our community. This is the topic of my proposal, > that's all. No problem, and if we get wiki pages going we can easily make such links. As Alexandro said, I had a problem with maintaining the main site. If you want to put these links on the education pages of the main site please do, you have the access rights so just do it. If you think I'm not doing something I should be tell me and I'll try and put it right. > >> That's your point of view. > > > > I would have thought my point of view might be taken into account given > > that I'm the Education Lead - even if it is not an "official" project > > lead position. > > A proposal for an incubator project is submitted to a vote and a > discussion. The proposal is meant to be the basis of the discussion. But as a matter of courtesy I think an existing project lead should be informed before such a proposal. What if out of the blue I proposed a new XXXX project that already existed? How would that project lead feel? > And I don't care of being lead or not of this project, really this is > not the topic. The only thing I want is share my knowledge and the tool > I know that can help the community. So let's do it through the existing project and if necessary move it to its own pages outside the marketing umbrella. The issue is not who leads it but whether its good to have two projects. Best to have one I think and we have one that can simply move location. If anyone wants to take over as lead please feel free. I have plenty of other things to do. > >> From what I know a several pedagogic research > >> dpts are happy to participate to this enterprise and not in a marketing > >> based project. > > > > So should this not be brought up on the education list and discussed > > before rushing off to start a new project? > > This is not a rushing off. It's a long time thought and I was on the way > to submit it anyway this week. It might have been in your head for a long time but its certainly news to most people on this list! > > The obvious solution is to move education from marketing to its own > > heading - the new acceptance of using Wikis makes this a lot easier - it > > was only under marketing by chance in the first place. If there had been > > an education project for OOo when I joined the community I would have > > been in that not marketing since my professional background is more > > education pedagogy. > > So why don't you put it in place, did you ask for help about that ? I explained why I didn't do that and why I was giving this some new consideration given the situation with the Wiki. Since that situation is about a week old it just needed some thought and this is a really pressurised time for me with work :-(. If you had E-mailed me about what you were thinking perhaps this thread would have been unnecessary. > any case, there is no fight about that project. As already said the only > thing I want is to see a real education project in place for OOo > and not > something hide behind marketing because it really prevents some people > to join and there is no way to put references in place. I would agree entirely with that. In fact you are in a better position to put references into the main web site than I am. Please do it where you think it will help. I trust your judgement to do it well. > A project of this kind should have it's own web space, imho only a page > on a wiki is not enough. No argument, I'm not saying we just need the wiki but I would like participation to be as accessible as possible. The Wiki approach to collaborative work has proved time and time again to be more productive. This is why to me the acceptance of Wikis by the project as a whole makes a big difference in the decision making about moving the education project out of marketing. I would expect the bulk of the information communication work to be done on the Wiki with CVS pages on the main web site. Its not an either or, its a both. > >>>> So, as I said, my proposal for this incubator will come on Saturday, I > >>>> hope that all the pedagogy experts will join it and that we will achieve > >>>> a world share :) > >>> Where will the proposal take place? > >> As I already said, as an incubator project. > > > > I meant were you intending to discuss it on a particular list? > > Incubator projects are submitted on discuss@ list > http://www.openoffice.org/about_us/protocols_proposing.html. But not all people on this list will be subscribed to discuss and this issue is likely to be most relevant to people on this list who have demonstrated their interest in education. That's why it appears to me to be a bit of a rush. Best to consult those who have shown an interest ad done work on education first. -- Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ZMS Ltd --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
