On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:46:55 +0200 Cedric BAIL <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:19 PM, Mike Blumenkrantz <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:07:45 -0200 > > Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I'm writing this mail so it's unified and everyone can opine without > >> being in one place at one time (IRC/#edevelop). > >> > >> Recently I've talked to people and while I tried to express it at IRC, > >> raster just got pissed and left. Later people would join and agree > >> with me... so while I'm looking like a jerk I guess I'm not alone in > >> there. I'll try to be as clear and short as possible. > >> > >> WHY RELEASE? > >> 1. to clarify we know some snapshot is usable. This will get us in > >> more distributions by default. > > good > >> 2. to remove that stupid karma over the 17 number if e. Will help > >> people that do not track us closely to know we're reasonable serious. > > people will probably still call it e17 even when we're on e20 > >> 3. we can start to bring in new technology without delaying it even > >> further (ie: elm and scripting language - js/elev8) > > not really a valid reason to release, you can see it did wonders for gnome > > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gnome_survey_part1&num=1 > > I don't really see the link with what you are saying. You were talking about this part, I assume? [[[ 37: 1. The complete ignorance and incompetence of the Gnome developpers; 2. The toolkit; 3. The entire UI. Yes, dig into the where computers came from ASAP: 1. Telegram devices; 2. Logic processors. Therefore a computer is there for: 1. World Wide Web users; 2. Applications. And not for: 1. Offline HTML 'apps'; 2. Being a trophy for your shelf. So what you need to do is: 1. Create a serious programming platform; 2. Make it a browser haven. You think that Gnome is making it easyer for users, by applying (yet again, how not surprising) an abstraction layer. "Oh this must be easyer to understand than. *Beep!* WRONG! ]]] > > >> WHY NOT RELEASE? > >> 1. there are both bugs (eg: efm) > > cedric has said a number of times that he'll be working on efm after he > > finishes emotion soon, and I'll likely disable eeze mounting entirely for > > the release since libmount is not widely deployed and I was unable to get > > widespread testing until now. > >> 2. missing features (xrandr, taskbar, ...) > > * xrandr patches have been made and are on the list waiting for testing and > > review, so I'm not really sure why this is a "missing" feature. > > * New users will not be able to deal with E17 if it doesn't have a taskbar, > > end of story. Engage is in SVN now, it's usable and widely used already, it > > can be merged. > > No you can't ! Doesn't solve the problem for non composite use case > and as long as we don't make the compositer the only possible choice > we can't say that engage is the answer to that problem. It's better than nothing. > > > * I don't care about keymap config since I'm american, but it seems > > important for users to be able to type in their own language > > * b&w is awful, we should switch to and iron out detourious for release > > Yes, that's something we should do as soon as possible. As a side > question, what is the status of that theme for elementary ? Because it > would make sense to also do the switch for elementary at some point. It works. > > > * Improved connman support is a big sticking point for me. I strongly > > believe that if the module does not improve now while it is actually a > > blocker for release, it never will. To this end, it's missing 3 big > > features that I can see people using: hidden network support, static ip > > setting, and enterprise encryption. It's likely that this is not actually a > > 6 month project as you have implied. > > Well, I have been using connman module since now one year and there is > only one place in the world where I would have liked to have a UI to > set static IP and a VPN... I am sure that's raster is in that place > most of the time like some of our user base :-) So not a strong > requirement from my point of view, but maybe some people at Samsung > could take over that item as of course you are all using E17 ! > > >> EXTRA DISCUSSIONS > >> * e_widgets is amazingly boring and gets in the way, people expect > >> something like Elementary to help them. Or even better, for rarely > >> used features like a mixer control dialog, xrandr dialog, connection > >> manager configuration these things could be done with a high level > >> language such as elev8. Thus lots of people would be motivated to help > >> get more features in. But introducing this now would delay e17 even > >> more, thus a no go. (Personal note I'm highly demotivated to hack e17 > >> due this exact reason. Doing a mixer dialog in e_widget is like few > >> days, in elev8 it should take me few hours -- easier to find than few > >> days) > > No argument here, though I think it's more an issue that e_widgets lacks > > documentation. It works fine and is actually easier/faster to use than elm > > in a lot of cases once you get the hang of it. > > Well, I think we both are doing hugly UI, maybe we should not comment > on that part. > > >> * we'd like to have an officially supported and widely accepted > >> high level language. While I've created and maintained Python, seems > >> it's hatted and going nowhere. So if it's Python, Lua or JS it > >> doesn't matter, but we need one for most boring things like > >> configuration dialogs and non-critical paths... (READ: I don't want it > >> to be in composite manager, eborder, etc -- tho I'm open to have them > >> in gadcon) > > This is going to be a pain for those that don't know the scripting > > language chosen, but I suppose the onslaught of progress must not be > > stopped. > > You know what, you can code in JS like you do in C. You just need to > remove all that useless typing. So any one of us that know C, will be > able to understand and patch JS as soon as you use it. > > >> AFTER RELEASE: I propose time-based releases, every 3 months we cook a > >> snap and put it out. Seems to work well for everyone out there, can't > >> see why it wouldn't work. IMO we can't have feature based snaps > >> because we don't have enough manpower to do this promises. > >> Longer release cycles are problematic as "wait my nice feature to get > >> in, it's one more week! Otherwise I'll have to wait 6+ months to get > >> it in!" and then this repeats forever as we see now. > > reasonable > >> > >> > >> BUT USERS WILL COMPLAIN ABOUT MISSING FEATURES: common argument for > >> xrandr, keyboard languages, taskbar. Users will complain, period. > >> We'll never be able to cope with minimum features, as this changes > >> from person to person. Moreover, the more we wait, the more we have to > >> do. Right now all other desktops implement the new systray and > >> application menu protocols, really soon this will be "a bare minimum" > >> for some users. There is proper PulseAudio mixer. Proper > >> ConnMan/NetworkManager. Soon we'll have the user-session and seat > >> management that GNOME is doing with systemd... This list is lways > >> growing. But we're short on human resources. Having a release and > >> getting Elev8 into E would help bringing more people to help. > > If we cared about user opinions so much, we probably wouldn't be working on > > E17 at all anymore. As for new minimum features, let's be realistic: nobody > > is ever going to implement that stuff before E17 release even if it's a > > requirement. We got pulseaudio support (the newest "desktop" feature) > > because I had fun abusing the native protocol, and that's not even cutting > > edge. > > That's the point of increasing the size of our community, so that > people that think it's funny to implement that kind of stuff do it. > > >> MY PROPOSAL: just fix the remaining efm bugs and other outstanding > >> crashes and do a release as is. Remove the e17 karma and get back to > >> normal life, get e18, e19... and things go into them as fast as we > >> can. > > > End result: VETOED. > > The items in http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release were discussed and > > agreed upon for a reason. Your personal lack of desire to complete them > > should not influence the release date, and others are actively working on > > them. > > As stated in my previous mail, I am for jumping on releasing an alpha > as soon as we have our main bug gone and try to target to do that at > the same time as 1.1. It will just be a benefit, driving developer > attention and maybe gather some help to finish the last round of work. > Because face it, we have very few people motivated to fix the last > item right now. But we have people that would have been helping if a > few technological limitation where removed. So we need to shorten the > painful path as much as we can. -- Mike Blumenkrantz Zentific: Doctor recommended, mother approved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. 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