On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 22:14:20 +0100 Tomas Cech <tc...@suse.cz> said: > Sorry for getting into this discussion only as E user. > > E17 is already very well usable and stable. When I shown E to my > colleagues at SUSE, they were surprised how fast and usable it is and > three already switched their machines to that. Quality is already good > for use (as it was 2 years ago when I tried E for the first time). > > I have never used EFM, I don't use taskbar, I use terminal for keymap > configuration, I don't use composition and I don't use python or JS > for programming using EFL (shellementary is more than I need). > > There are many window managers (I know it's not the same as desktop > environment) which doesn't use features mentioned above and have many > users. All mentioned above sounds to me more like extra features. > > Having snapshots is way to go for distributions as the code will be > more tested than 'yes-it-boots' and help distribution package > maintainers to do their job. It's far better than asking on IRC which > revision can be considered as working... > > my little user's vote: make snapshots and stabilize code periodically
just saying - 98% of the time a snapshot is exactly the same as a random svn checkout. that's why i'm not so incredibly keen on them. i do have to say that for efl a big barrier or doing releases is that we have so many libs that have to be separately disted and built - if it was 1 tree it'd be easier. either way - as for the final todo list, we are SOOOOOOOOOO close and to give up now on features that are pretty key to many users is silly. hell - taskbar is now in svn. > >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:19 PM, Mike Blumenkrantz <m...@zentific.com> > >> wrote: > >> > On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:07:45 -0200 > >> > Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri <barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote: > >> >> I'm writing this mail so it's unified and everyone can opine without > >> >> being in one place at one time (IRC/#edevelop). > >> >> > >> >> Recently I've talked to people and while I tried to express it at IRC, > >> >> raster just got pissed and left. Later people would join and agree > >> >> with me... so while I'm looking like a jerk I guess I'm not alone in > >> >> there. I'll try to be as clear and short as possible. > >> >> > >> >> WHY RELEASE? > >> >> 1. to clarify we know some snapshot is usable. This will get us in > >> >> more distributions by default. > >> > good > >> >> 2. to remove that stupid karma over the 17 number if e. Will help > >> >> people that do not track us closely to know we're reasonable serious. > >> > people will probably still call it e17 even when we're on e20 > >> >> 3. we can start to bring in new technology without delaying it even > >> >> further (ie: elm and scripting language - js/elev8) > >> > not really a valid reason to release, you can see it did wonders for > >> > gnome > >> > >> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gnome_survey_part1&num=1 > >> > >> I don't really see the link with what you are saying. > >> > >> >> WHY NOT RELEASE? > >> >> 1. there are both bugs (eg: efm) > >> > cedric has said a number of times that he'll be working on efm after he > >> > finishes emotion soon, and I'll likely disable eeze mounting entirely for > >> > the release since libmount is not widely deployed and I was unable to get > >> > widespread testing until now. > >> >> 2. missing features (xrandr, taskbar, ...) > >> > * xrandr patches have been made and are on the list waiting for testing > >> > and review, so I'm not really sure why this is a "missing" feature. > >> > * New users will not be able to deal with E17 if it doesn't have a > >> > taskbar, end of story. Engage is in SVN now, it's usable and widely used > >> > already, it can be merged. > >> > >> No you can't ! Doesn't solve the problem for non composite use case > >> and as long as we don't make the compositer the only possible choice > >> we can't say that engage is the answer to that problem. > >> > >> > * I don't care about keymap config since I'm american, but it seems > >> > important for users to be able to type in their own language > >> > * b&w is awful, we should switch to and iron out detourious for release > >> > >> Yes, that's something we should do as soon as possible. As a side > >> question, what is the status of that theme for elementary ? Because it > >> would make sense to also do the switch for elementary at some point. > >> > >> > * Improved connman support is a big sticking point for me. I strongly > >> > believe that if the module does not improve now while it is actually a > >> > blocker for release, it never will. To this end, it's missing 3 big > >> > features that I can see people using: hidden network support, static ip > >> > setting, and enterprise encryption. It's likely that this is not > >> > actually a 6 month project as you have implied. > >> > >> Well, I have been using connman module since now one year and there is > >> only one place in the world where I would have liked to have a UI to > >> set static IP and a VPN... I am sure that's raster is in that place > >> most of the time like some of our user base :-) So not a strong > >> requirement from my point of view, but maybe some people at Samsung > >> could take over that item as of course you are all using E17 ! > >> > >> >> EXTRA DISCUSSIONS > >> >> * e_widgets is amazingly boring and gets in the way, people expect > >> >> something like Elementary to help them. Or even better, for rarely > >> >> used features like a mixer control dialog, xrandr dialog, connection > >> >> manager configuration these things could be done with a high level > >> >> language such as elev8. Thus lots of people would be motivated to help > >> >> get more features in. But introducing this now would delay e17 even > >> >> more, thus a no go. (Personal note I'm highly demotivated to hack e17 > >> >> due this exact reason. Doing a mixer dialog in e_widget is like few > >> >> days, in elev8 it should take me few hours -- easier to find than few > >> >> days) > >> > No argument here, though I think it's more an issue that e_widgets lacks > >> > documentation. It works fine and is actually easier/faster to use than > >> > elm in a lot of cases once you get the hang of it. > >> > >> Well, I think we both are doing hugly UI, maybe we should not comment > >> on that part. > >> > >> >> * we'd like to have an officially supported and widely accepted > >> >> high level language. While I've created and maintained Python, seems > >> >> it's hatted and going nowhere. So if it's Python, Lua or JS it > >> >> doesn't matter, but we need one for most boring things like > >> >> configuration dialogs and non-critical paths... (READ: I don't want it > >> >> to be in composite manager, eborder, etc -- tho I'm open to have them > >> >> in gadcon) > >> > This is going to be a pain for those that don't know the scripting > >> > language chosen, but I suppose the onslaught of progress must not be > >> > stopped. > >> > >> You know what, you can code in JS like you do in C. You just need to > >> remove all that useless typing. So any one of us that know C, will be > >> able to understand and patch JS as soon as you use it. > >> > >> >> AFTER RELEASE: I propose time-based releases, every 3 months we cook a > >> >> snap and put it out. Seems to work well for everyone out there, can't > >> >> see why it wouldn't work. IMO we can't have feature based snaps > >> >> because we don't have enough manpower to do this promises. > >> >> Longer release cycles are problematic as "wait my nice feature to get > >> >> in, it's one more week! Otherwise I'll have to wait 6+ months to get > >> >> it in!" and then this repeats forever as we see now. > >> > reasonable > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> BUT USERS WILL COMPLAIN ABOUT MISSING FEATURES: common argument for > >> >> xrandr, keyboard languages, taskbar. Users will complain, period. > >> >> We'll never be able to cope with minimum features, as this changes > >> >> from person to person. Moreover, the more we wait, the more we have to > >> >> do. Right now all other desktops implement the new systray and > >> >> application menu protocols, really soon this will be "a bare minimum" > >> >> for some users. There is proper PulseAudio mixer. Proper > >> >> ConnMan/NetworkManager. Soon we'll have the user-session and seat > >> >> management that GNOME is doing with systemd... This list is lways > >> >> growing. But we're short on human resources. Having a release and > >> >> getting Elev8 into E would help bringing more people to help. > >> > If we cared about user opinions so much, we probably wouldn't be working > >> > on E17 at all anymore. As for new minimum features, let's be realistic: > >> > nobody is ever going to implement that stuff before E17 release even if > >> > it's a requirement. We got pulseaudio support (the newest "desktop" > >> > feature) because I had fun abusing the native protocol, and that's not > >> > even cutting edge. > >> > >> That's the point of increasing the size of our community, so that > >> people that think it's funny to implement that kind of stuff do it. > >> > >> >> MY PROPOSAL: just fix the remaining efm bugs and other outstanding > >> >> crashes and do a release as is. Remove the e17 karma and get back to > >> >> normal life, get e18, e19... and things go into them as fast as we > >> >> can. > >> > >> > End result: VETOED. > >> > The items in http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release were discussed > >> > and agreed upon for a reason. Your personal lack of desire to complete > >> > them should not influence the release date, and others are actively > >> > working on them. > >> > >> As stated in my previous mail, I am for jumping on releasing an alpha > >> as soon as we have our main bug gone and try to target to do that at > >> the same time as 1.1. It will just be a benefit, driving developer > >> attention and maybe gather some help to finish the last round of work. > >> Because face it, we have very few people motivated to fix the last > >> item right now. But we have people that would have been helping if a > >> few technological limitation where removed. So we need to shorten the > >> painful path as much as we can. > >> -- > >> Cedric BAIL > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The demand for IT networking professionals continues to grow, and the > >> demand for specialized networking skills is growing even more rapidly. > >> Take a complimentary Learning@Cisco Self-Assessment and learn > >> about Cisco certifications, training, and career opportunities. > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/cisco-dev2dev > >> _______________________________________________ > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > >-- > >------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > >The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook > >in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps > >for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and simple > >it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev > >_______________________________________________ > >enlightenment-devel mailing list > >enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > Best regards, > > Tomas Cech > Sleep_Walker -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA® Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
